LEDDY PARK WOODS
APPLETREE POINT UPLAND/WETLAND WOODS
Public Working Group Discussion about the Proposed Leddy Park Disc Golf Course - 03/24/2009
Burlington Parks & Recreation Department Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group Meeting.
Jul 4, 2009
Leddy Park is in a wildlife corridor of Arms Grant, Rock Point, Leddy Park, Appletree Point, Winooski River Delta Park, Half Moon Cove, and Intervale
LEDDY PARK WOODSAPPLETREE POINT UPLAND/WETLAND WOODS
NPA RESOLUTION CONCERNING DISC GOLF AT LEDDY PARK
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By Jon Flint, NPA Steering Committee Member - Ward 4, Tracy Dr, jon.j.flint@gmail.com
Thu, 02 July 2009
By Jon Flint, NPA Steering Committee Member - Ward 4, Tracy Dr, jon.j.flint@gmail.com
Thu, 02 July 2009
Below is the formal Neighborhood Planning Assembly resolution on Disc Golf at Leddy Park. It will be voted on at the July 16th NPA meeting. Resolutions formally communicate the opinion of residents from Wards 4&7. If you wish to participate in this process, please attend the NPA meeting July 16th at the Heineberg Senior Center at 6:45 p.m.
Thanks
Jon Flint
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WHEREAS the discussion about disc golf at Leddy Park has been a high profile issue for nine months in the new North End, and
WHEREAS testimony by professional naturalists has predicted that the introduction of disc golf would have a serious negative impact on the vitality of the Leddy Park woods and the integrity of the diverse ecolgical structure of those woods, and
WHEREAS testimony by numerous citizens who have been using the trails in the woods since the city acquired the property in 1971 suggests that the introduction of disc golf would effectively displace general pedestrian use of the woods, and
WHEREAS Mayor Kiss in an open letter to the Parks and Recreation Commission has stated, "...disc golf in not an appropriate activity for Leddy Park in the areas where it's proposed and I recommend against it...Open space at Leddy park--in this case the woods in question--isn't wasted space...It's clear that Burlington residents use the Leddy Woods for recreation and disc golf carved out of the woods is likely to be an intrusion on this use."
WHEREAS Wayne Gross, the director of the Department of Parks and Recreation in an open letter to the Commission has written,"...my view is that the development of the disc golf course, regardless of size and exact location, would have a significant adverse impact on the woodlands of Leddy Park. Given the strong public support for preserving the natural qualities of these woodlands, I recommend that a disc golf course not be built in Leddy Park."
WHERAS at its meeting on May 19 the Commission voted to continue the already nine months long evaluation of the appropriateness of disc golf at Leddy Park by shifting the discussion appropriateness of a nine hole course in contrast to an eighteen hole course, therefore
LET IT BE RESOLVED that disc golf is not appropriate for Leddy Park and will not be authorized in the Park.
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Resolutions:
NPAs influence public policy in several ways. One way NPAs express their sentiments and concerns about particular issues is in the form of resolutions. These resolutions are then distributed to the Mayor, City Councilors and appropriate City departments and commissions, ensuring that elected officials and Department heads know what residents are thinking about particular issues before they make decisions. Neighborhood Planning Assembly resolutions are shared with Steering Committee members of other Neighborhood Planning Assemblies in order to keep each other informed about their opinions on issues or projects of public concern.
NPAs influence public policy in several ways. One way NPAs express their sentiments and concerns about particular issues is in the form of resolutions. These resolutions are then distributed to the Mayor, City Councilors and appropriate City departments and commissions, ensuring that elected officials and Department heads know what residents are thinking about particular issues before they make decisions. Neighborhood Planning Assembly resolutions are shared with Steering Committee members of other Neighborhood Planning Assemblies in order to keep each other informed about their opinions on issues or projects of public concern.
Jun 5, 2009
WARNING: Do whatever it takes to keep disc golf out of Leddy Park, or you will regret it.
WATERBURY EXPERIENCE:
Dogs, drinking at disc golf course irk neighbors
By Nathan Burgess
When an unleashed dog scurried through Mike and Izzy Keiser’s cat door and into their house, and attacked the family’s cat while Mike’s mother lay in bed with cancer, the couple knew they had had enough.
“We’re fed up,” Mike Keiser told the Waterbury Select Board on Monday.
The Keisers live on Loomis Street in Waterbury, adjacent to a disc golf course at Hope Davey Field.
Disc golf is a spin on traditional golf; it replaces balls with plastic discs, like Frisbees, and holes with metal or plastic baskets.
The Waterbury course, built in 2001, has been a headache for the Keisers, who have complained about disc golfers entering their property to retrieve discs, letting unleashed dogs run rampant on their lane, and drinking alcohol on the course, in violation of posted course rules. The couple supplied photos to prove their points.
“It has become out of control,” Mike Keiser said. “We’ve been Waterbury taxpayers for 30 years and we’re tired of it. Unfortunately, when we’ve gone up to these people to ask them to leave, they get verbally abusive and aggressive.”
Animal control officers Ed Brown and Ed Severance were also at the meeting; they have been called to the Keiser residence several times to confront players, and have faced the same attitude, Brown said.
“They look at us in our civilian clothes and think, ‘Who is this guy telling us what to do?’ We’ve asked people to keep their dogs on a leash, but it just falls on deaf ears,” Brown said.
Brown said most golfers he’s dealt with are from out of town.
“These people aren’t even taxpayers,” Brown said. “They don’t contribute to Waterbury at all and we have to go up and chase them, and the town has to pay our salary. I think if they were our friends and neighbors, more of them would understand the rules and respect them.”
A number of possible solutions were floated at the meeting, such as relocating the holes, erecting a fence to keep golfers out of the Keisers’ property, and banning dogs from the course.
The select board will likely contact Jesse Wing and Matt Alberghini, co-founders of the Green Mountain Disc Golf Club, who were instrumental in working with the town to get the course built, and ask for their ideas.
“The goal is to work with those people on improving the general level of courtesy,” said Rebecca Ellis, who chairs the select board. “There are multiple uses of that course and everybody has to work together to make it work. Ideally, we can contact local folks for the next meeting, and if other folks who play or play as an organization have any input, they’re welcome to show up.”
“We’re fed up,” Mike Keiser told the Waterbury Select Board on Monday.
The Keisers live on Loomis Street in Waterbury, adjacent to a disc golf course at Hope Davey Field.
Disc golf is a spin on traditional golf; it replaces balls with plastic discs, like Frisbees, and holes with metal or plastic baskets.
The Waterbury course, built in 2001, has been a headache for the Keisers, who have complained about disc golfers entering their property to retrieve discs, letting unleashed dogs run rampant on their lane, and drinking alcohol on the course, in violation of posted course rules. The couple supplied photos to prove their points.
“It has become out of control,” Mike Keiser said. “We’ve been Waterbury taxpayers for 30 years and we’re tired of it. Unfortunately, when we’ve gone up to these people to ask them to leave, they get verbally abusive and aggressive.”
Animal control officers Ed Brown and Ed Severance were also at the meeting; they have been called to the Keiser residence several times to confront players, and have faced the same attitude, Brown said.
“They look at us in our civilian clothes and think, ‘Who is this guy telling us what to do?’ We’ve asked people to keep their dogs on a leash, but it just falls on deaf ears,” Brown said.
Brown said most golfers he’s dealt with are from out of town.
“These people aren’t even taxpayers,” Brown said. “They don’t contribute to Waterbury at all and we have to go up and chase them, and the town has to pay our salary. I think if they were our friends and neighbors, more of them would understand the rules and respect them.”
A number of possible solutions were floated at the meeting, such as relocating the holes, erecting a fence to keep golfers out of the Keisers’ property, and banning dogs from the course.
The select board will likely contact Jesse Wing and Matt Alberghini, co-founders of the Green Mountain Disc Golf Club, who were instrumental in working with the town to get the course built, and ask for their ideas.
“The goal is to work with those people on improving the general level of courtesy,” said Rebecca Ellis, who chairs the select board. “There are multiple uses of that course and everybody has to work together to make it work. Ideally, we can contact local folks for the next meeting, and if other folks who play or play as an organization have any input, they’re welcome to show up.”
That Waterbury disc golf course article gave me chills of deja vu. I lived next to a golf course for 20+ years on Marble Island in Colchester, and I saw it all!
- There was a small sparse wooded area between 2nd hole and my house -- it was a public toilet. I'd look out my office window and see bare ass and -- well, you get the picture. My house was in plain sight, 40 ft away. They did not care.
- Then there was the golfer who peed in my garage! It had a gravel floor, fortunately. I saw someone coming out of my garage. He said he was looking for his golf ball, like that was a perfectly reasonable thing to be doing in my garage. I went in to check things and saw the wet spot. Damn!
- Golfer may have been there to steal tools, which happened, also.
- A golfer stole our dog -- other players snitched on her and we found the dog at her house and took it back.
- Now the damage -- cars dented in the driveway,
- and windows broken in my house. This golf course was rinky-dink and good golfers did not play there. Fariway 2 was a dog's leg and the balls, more often than not, missed the fairway and hit my house and cars.
- I became concerned on a different level when a neighbor walking her baby down the lane took a hit, well the stroller was hit. The town told us to post No Tresspassing signs if WE were concerned about liability! The sign might keep walking neighbors away, but not the golfers.
- We tried to get the course owner to make some safety-related changes, but he refused. "You live next to a golf course, what do you expect?" was his response.
- When our property flooded because the golf course was built in a swampy wetland, and a retention pond that drained off the area was not properly maintained and there was no enforcement of permit conditions or subdivision regs., spring runoff flooded our property. The city said there was nothing they could do. The owner was an LLC, of course. Advocates for the owner claimed it was a 100 year flood, even after it happened 3 years in a row. [They donated money every year to the Little League.]
- The flooding failed our septic system, among other things, but the septic failure was the most costly to us personally. My pet ducks were in heaven so I had mixed feeling. Until the bills came.
- Drinking and swearing. There were special days for club groups, and those days were THE WORST because the club group golfers had no regard for each other so constraints that could have damped things down a bit otherwise on a public course, were absent on club days. They tried to outdo each other with vulgarity, in word and deed. And they were lousy golfers, usually drinking more or at least openly displaying it more, so on "club days" there were more hits than usual on my property.
- Entitlement: Golfers think they have the right to jump your fence, trample through your gardens, your yard, your garage, your deck, anywhere on your property, to retrieve their projectile property. They get abusive if confronted, and we got several lectures about how expensive golf balls are! I started collecting golf balls from my yard and surroundings at night, putting them in a bucket by the property line with a sweet note saying "Lose one? Take one." Most days a golfer would steal ALL the golf balls first thing in the morning, and that was that for the day.
The constant rude invasion -- someone else's idea of fun taking away of my quality of life -- taught me a lesson I will NEVER forget. Do whatever it takes to stop disc golf in Leddy Park.
Lea Terhune
Lea Terhune
Jun 3, 2009
DREAM ON.........
GREEN MOUNTAIN DISC GOLF CLUB
- August 13, 2008. The dream of a disc golf course in Burlington is no longer just a dream. Approval has been granted to move forward with the project and a seriously dedicated group of people is working to get this course installed over the next couple of months. The GMDGC has been providing assistance with course design and will be helping lead the charge during the installation phase. There are many opportunities to help make this a reality. from http://gmdgc.org/2008/
Here is the REALITY of this issue, deleted by Council from the RESOLUTION, is this:
- WHEREAS testimony by numerous citizens who have been using the trails in the woods since the city acquired the property in 1971 suggests the introduction of disc golf would effectively displace general pedestrian use of the woods, and
- WHEREAS Mayor Kiss in an open letter to the Parks and Recreation Commission has stated, “... disc golf is not an appropriate activity for Leddy Park in the areas where it’s proposed and I recommend against it... Open space at Leddy Park – in this case the woods in question — isn’t wasted space ... It’s clear that Burlington residents use the Leddy Woods for recreation and disc golf carved out of those woods is likely to be an intrusion on this use.”
- WHEREAS Wayne Gross, the director oft he Department of Parks and Recreation in an open letter to the Commission has written, “...my view is that the development of the disc golf course, regardless of the size and exact location, would have a significant adverse impact on the woodlands of Leddy Park. Given the strong public support for preserving the natural qualities of these woodlands, I recommend that a disc golf course not be built in Leddy Park.”
City Council Fails to STOP Disc Golf in Leddy Park
...Councilor Ellis had drafted a resolution that called for the removal of Leddy Park from consideration as a location for disc golf. It had the sponsorship of fellow Ward 4 and 7 Councilors Kaplan, Decelles, and Dober. Other Councilors had expressed concern with language in the original resolution so Councilor Ellis changed language in his resolution to make it more acceptable to other members in an effort to insure passage.
The resolution before the Council did not take Leddy Park out of consideration, but did resolve that our Parks & Recreation Commission look at other locations for disc golf. Although not the definitive resolution that we all wanted, it was an important step in directing our Parks & Recreation Commission to consider other alternative locations. The Council discussed this latest draft.
Councilor Decelles wanted stronger language that would take Leddy Park out of consideration and offered amendments to this end, but when passage of the amended resolution was in doubt, the original unamended resolution was considered again and discussion continued.
Councilor Adrian then offered an amendment that removed certain paragraphs of the resolution that cited displacement of current park users, the Mayor’s letter, and Director Gross’ letter. All three paragraphs supported the argument that Leddy Park is not an appropriate location.
Ironically, Councilor Adrian’s amendment was included and the Council passed the amended resolution, with all four of the original sponsors voting against it. Our Ward 4 and 7 Councilors felt the resolution had lost much of its original intent and weight.
Overall I believe the passage of this resolution is positive in that it directs Parks & Recreation Commission look at other locations for disc golf. Until last night, only Leddy Park was being considered. Broadening the search for locations may eventually remove the threat of disc golf in Leddy Park.
I have included the original resolution below and bolded those paragraphs that made it into the final amended version. Paragraphs 3, 4, and 5 shown unbolded and indented below, were removed through Councilor Adrian’s amendment.
Mark Barlow
LeddyPark.org
The resolution before the Council did not take Leddy Park out of consideration, but did resolve that our Parks & Recreation Commission look at other locations for disc golf. Although not the definitive resolution that we all wanted, it was an important step in directing our Parks & Recreation Commission to consider other alternative locations. The Council discussed this latest draft.
Councilor Decelles wanted stronger language that would take Leddy Park out of consideration and offered amendments to this end, but when passage of the amended resolution was in doubt, the original unamended resolution was considered again and discussion continued.
Councilor Adrian then offered an amendment that removed certain paragraphs of the resolution that cited displacement of current park users, the Mayor’s letter, and Director Gross’ letter. All three paragraphs supported the argument that Leddy Park is not an appropriate location.
Ironically, Councilor Adrian’s amendment was included and the Council passed the amended resolution, with all four of the original sponsors voting against it. Our Ward 4 and 7 Councilors felt the resolution had lost much of its original intent and weight.
Overall I believe the passage of this resolution is positive in that it directs Parks & Recreation Commission look at other locations for disc golf. Until last night, only Leddy Park was being considered. Broadening the search for locations may eventually remove the threat of disc golf in Leddy Park.
I have included the original resolution below and bolded those paragraphs that made it into the final amended version. Paragraphs 3, 4, and 5 shown unbolded and indented below, were removed through Councilor Adrian’s amendment.
Mark Barlow
LeddyPark.org
Jun 1, 2009
City Council, June 1, 2009
Public Forum, Disc Golf in Leddy Park
Lea Terhune
The City of Burlington, Department of Planning and Zoning, prepared a Neighborhood Activity Center Report* featuring North Avenue and Riverside Avenue Neighborhood Activity Centers (NACs). The report included the results of a design charrette of the Ethan Allen Shopping Center (North End NAC) conducted at the American Planning Association Northeast Regional Conference in Burlington, October 1993.
Everywhere in the report, and in the design charrette, pedestrian access was considered a social and economic asset to the North End Neighborhood Activity Center. Noting the dense population of the area, and the connectivity between the avenue, shopping center, park, bike path, residential areas and lakefront, pedestrian-related issues factored into every aspect of the charrette. Pedestrian access issues were evaluated as either strengths or weaknesses. Anything that expanded access and made the area MORE pedestrian friendly was positive. Anything that inhibited or blocked pedestrian flow was a negative. Seven groups all identified similar pedestrian strengths and weaknesses in the North End NAC:
Strengths
· Highly accessible to pedestrians
· Good access by road, bike path, & pedestrian circulation
· Neighborhood is pedestrian friendly
· [Shopping center is]Abutting park/bike path
· Park and it’s access [are assets]
· Pedestrian access from rear of shopping center
· Possible pedestrian mall
· Link residential uses to park and shopping center
· Better connection & access to park, bike path, & beach
· Connection with bike path and park
Weaknesses
· Poor pedestrian access from abutting land
· No visual or footpath access to park [no gateway]
· Pedestrian unfriendly, especially to the elderly
· Lack of pedestrian facilities
· Unfriendly pedestrian access
Threats
· [Poor] pedestrian linkage
Decisions that inhibit the pedestrian-friendly value of the shopping area and surrounding park and adjacent neighborhoods must not be taken lightly. Our Neighborhood Activity Center is moving toward the vision of the 1993 NAC Report and the APA design charette. Redevelopment of the site has enhanced the pedestrian park atmosphere. Mr. Hauke has opened the gateway – between the theater and Hannaford’s -- informally. A 300-unit senior/mixed housing project has won the bid on the state-owned land next to the shopping center, in the NAC. We must keep the park pedestrian-friendly for seniors, already a large demographic in the North End.
The design charrette envisioned a North Avenue [bike]ped gateway to the park, entering by the Bagel Café, traversing a pedestrian friendly shopping park, and moving into pedestrian-friendly Leddy Park through the pine grove between the tennis courts and the soccer fields. Other access points would be from the neighborhoods via the network of walking trails, and from the bikepath. Change moves slowly in Vermont, even in Burlington. No one who hopes for the Southern Connector is ready to give up. 2500 residents who petitioned the city for a dog park waited 5 years for it to be realized.
Change takes time here, but our NAC is moving in the right direction. Bike and pedestrian-friendliness and pedestrian connectivity will be even more valuable to us in the future than it is today as we learn to conserve energy and continue to treasure the front porch neighborhoods that characterize the North End.
Please support the resolution to evaluate other sites for a disc golf course, and preserve the wooded trails in pedestrian-friendly Leddy Park that are an integral part of our pedestrian-friendly Ward 4/7 Neighborhood Activity Center.
______________________________________________________________
*City of Burlington Vermont. Neighborhood Activity Center Report. September 1994. Burlington Department of Planning and Zoning. With design assistance from Julie Campoli, Landscape Architect and Turner Brooks, Architect. All or parts of this report were produced with funding assistance from the Vermont Department of Housing and Community affairs through the Municipal Planning Grant Program #0061/94MPO3
May 31, 2009
It is time to say NO to disc golf in Leddy Park.
Dear Councilors,
As a disc golfer I am very concerned by the recent vote by the Parks Commission to give btown disc golf 9 hole course consideration in Leddy Park. Immediately following thie vote, Btown president Brenden Bush stated publicly to the media that his group intends to use any Leddy 9 hole course to recruit and lobby for 18 holes at Leddy. See Shay Totten's 7 Days blog. I believe this is subversion of the process. It is time for the city to say no to disc golf in Leddy Park so that this group and the city can move on. It would be nice if the city could have a disc golf course, but not at the high price of sacrificing the current and future uses that Leddy offers to a wide variety of residents and visitors rather than a large scale single use game.
Also, to Wayne Gross' credit, after studying the issues from both sides and listening to public comment, he reversed his initial 'yes' reccomendation to 'no', not an easy administrative decision, and advised the commission to vote against any disc golf in Leddy. Save for Dave Hartnett, who voted no, the commission ignored Gross' reccomendation and went ahead with a 'no' to 18 but 'yes' to 9, thereby re-opening for btown this whole issue. Had the commission said no to Leddy, but yes to disc golf in Burlington if there is a place, we would be moving on and already looking at alternatives if there are any.
As a disc golfer who has walked the landfill with Dave Brezniak, I believe the landfill represents an excellent and unique 18 hole course opportunity. Galvanized steel washbasins can be filled with concrete for basket stands and be placed on top of the clay cap without piercing it. The fairways can be mowed and roughs allowed to grow. There are also approximately 3-4 acres of dry wooded potential holes between the landfill and 127 beltline. Dave and I agreed that with the woods the site is probably between 10 to 15 acres. Play can start early in the spring once the landfill dries off giving residents an early opportunity for exercise even before the bike path ice melts.
I don't believe the site can be used for much else given its contour and brown site status. Now, wind and elevation, and not just trees become challenges for the player requiring up, down, and sideways throws. The wooded holes will provide needed player respite on hot sunny days. Wooden blinds on feet can also be erected to make holes more challenging. A few portopotties and picnic tables can be installed courtesy of btown. Parks and btown and professional disc golf association websites can tell people that parking is severely limited and encourage people to ride bikes, buses, or walk to the course, which adjoins a remote section of the bikepath. This puts a natural damper on potentially high levels of activity so that the city can gauge the course without the course being overwhelming or problematic. If there are problems, the course can be removed from the landfill much more easily than after cutting holes thru Leddy Park. Old north end eateries and grocery stores might also profit. Steve Goodkind also said recently at NPA and DPW meetings that he did not see a problem with using the landfill for this purpose.
For these reasons, please consider Russ Ellis' resolution to stop Leddy Park disc golf and thank you for all your hard work and attention in this matter.
Sincerely,
Seth Sherman
As a disc golfer I am very concerned by the recent vote by the Parks Commission to give btown disc golf 9 hole course consideration in Leddy Park. Immediately following thie vote, Btown president Brenden Bush stated publicly to the media that his group intends to use any Leddy 9 hole course to recruit and lobby for 18 holes at Leddy. See Shay Totten's 7 Days blog. I believe this is subversion of the process. It is time for the city to say no to disc golf in Leddy Park so that this group and the city can move on. It would be nice if the city could have a disc golf course, but not at the high price of sacrificing the current and future uses that Leddy offers to a wide variety of residents and visitors rather than a large scale single use game.
Also, to Wayne Gross' credit, after studying the issues from both sides and listening to public comment, he reversed his initial 'yes' reccomendation to 'no', not an easy administrative decision, and advised the commission to vote against any disc golf in Leddy. Save for Dave Hartnett, who voted no, the commission ignored Gross' reccomendation and went ahead with a 'no' to 18 but 'yes' to 9, thereby re-opening for btown this whole issue. Had the commission said no to Leddy, but yes to disc golf in Burlington if there is a place, we would be moving on and already looking at alternatives if there are any.
As a disc golfer who has walked the landfill with Dave Brezniak, I believe the landfill represents an excellent and unique 18 hole course opportunity. Galvanized steel washbasins can be filled with concrete for basket stands and be placed on top of the clay cap without piercing it. The fairways can be mowed and roughs allowed to grow. There are also approximately 3-4 acres of dry wooded potential holes between the landfill and 127 beltline. Dave and I agreed that with the woods the site is probably between 10 to 15 acres. Play can start early in the spring once the landfill dries off giving residents an early opportunity for exercise even before the bike path ice melts.
I don't believe the site can be used for much else given its contour and brown site status. Now, wind and elevation, and not just trees become challenges for the player requiring up, down, and sideways throws. The wooded holes will provide needed player respite on hot sunny days. Wooden blinds on feet can also be erected to make holes more challenging. A few portopotties and picnic tables can be installed courtesy of btown. Parks and btown and professional disc golf association websites can tell people that parking is severely limited and encourage people to ride bikes, buses, or walk to the course, which adjoins a remote section of the bikepath. This puts a natural damper on potentially high levels of activity so that the city can gauge the course without the course being overwhelming or problematic. If there are problems, the course can be removed from the landfill much more easily than after cutting holes thru Leddy Park. Old north end eateries and grocery stores might also profit. Steve Goodkind also said recently at NPA and DPW meetings that he did not see a problem with using the landfill for this purpose.
For these reasons, please consider Russ Ellis' resolution to stop Leddy Park disc golf and thank you for all your hard work and attention in this matter.
Sincerely,
Seth Sherman
SAFETY of Pedestrians in Leddy Park
Memo
To: Members of Burlington City Council
From: Patrick Kearney
Former member of Disc Golf Working Group
Subject: Safety of Pedestrians in Leddy Park if Disc Golf is Approved
Date: May 30, 2009
As a member of the working group I did considerable research regarding disc golf and learned a great deal about the sport and what actions must be taken to guarantee the safety of pedestrians.
Leddy Park is much different than other parks in the city because pedestrians, if the residents within the new north end want to walk or bike to the arena or beach they must use the paths in the woods or the narrow roadway. It is apparent by looking at the trails the trails get considerable use. Therefore it is not appropriate to have a disc golf course in the same location. I personally spoke with Steve Allen and requested that he consider the safety of pedestrians when making a recommendation regarding disc golf in Leddy Park. Wayne Gross after working with his staff and contacting other park managers recommended to the commission that disc golf was not appropriate in Leddy Park. However Steve Allen, Carolyn Hanson, John Ewing and Barbara Nolfi did not listen to Wayne. I realize that the City Council does not want to micro manage a commission but it is obvious to most persons I speak with that during the last 18 months the Parks and Recreation commission is not a great example of how a commission is supposed to work for the citizens of Burlington.
1. Disc can be thrown 80 miles per hour and 600 feet in distance. See attachment
2. Discs do not always go where they are intended to go. Therefore significant injuries may occur. At Kansas State University one person had to have facial stitches and dental work. Also the buildings received thousands of dollars of damage. During our disc golf meeting some players admitted they have been hit by disc.
3. Once a disc course is installed you cannot shut it down or control the use. Players will play even though the baskets have been removed.
4. You cannot control the number of persons that use the course
5. You cannot control the times of year that people play. They play year round in Michigan and Colorado and perhaps more states.
6. I have tried to help the Btown disc golf group find other sites:
Thomas Hubbard of South Burlington Parks and Recreation has no area for disc golf even though they have several parks and the 110 Acre Caulking’s property.
Brad Luck of Essex Junction Parks and Recreation has no area for disc golf even though they have the former Vermont State Forest area.
Glen Cuititia of Colchester Parks and Recreation has no area for disc golf and no interest.
Jim McCullough of Catamount has a 500 acre family center. Jim will not risk some of the users of the family center may hit by a golf disc off course.
May 24, 2009
Walkers of Leddy Park Unite
Dear Councilors and Mayor
If we are going to add another activity to LP we need to work with long term clubs with proven track records in Burlington.
Btown dg club has NO track record anywhere. Except for this one disaster at 18 holes of disc golf. They were formed shortly before they went before parks and rec commissions. They formed a non profit, only because they were advised to do this by parks and rec. They are barely a year old, now!
They had but 9 members when they went before Parks Commissioners in 2008.
We should not deal with btowndg club anymore. They are strongly affiliated with a political group called Democracy for American as 4 of the 9 principal
members in 2008 work for and belong to DFA. And the only way they were going to get money was through selling advertising and paste it onto their baskets that were putting into Leddy Park.
Burlington Garden Club was just recognized by the Mayor for its 75 years of work here, and the month of June is Burlington Garden Club month.
And guess what, Burlington Garden Club is very interested in working with us in Leddy Park. They can teach, demonstrate, execute, and help maintain shade gardens, sitting area, water gardens, flowering trees edging the woodland areas, selecting new trees to plant, get access to the Horticulture Farm that is part of UVm and is brimming full with trees that are not in LP that need thinning...... We can really have a beautiful park with their help. And they have maintained the gardens in front of city hall, and in many many many other locations for years....And can select plants from their own gardens to contribute.... And they will bring in 100's of active members and people who walk in Leddy Park and elsewhere to be part of this activity.
Why disc golf, anymore? Why not have a activity that is user friendly to Leddy Park and all of its users. They can help us mitigate the disturbed areas. Having a master plan will help to guide all of us in being successful. Several towns have "arboretums" that are travel destination points, as well as educational. And this will all help to bring in more money into Burlington and into Parks and Rec.
Isn't this a better win win than trying yet once again to squeeze in disc golf in an area that does not want disc golf? I even have softball coaches who play disc golf saying NO to disc golf in Leddy Park. "It will really mess up our softball games," one told me.
Thank you
Carolyn Bates
May 31, 2009
Is it a primrose path?
Panel says NO to 18-hole disc golf at Leddy, maybe to 9.
.
Parks Commission Meeting, May 19, 2009
http://www.cctv.org/node/73983
John Briggs, Burlington Free Press
May 20, 2009
PANEL SAYS NO TO 18-HOLE DISC GOLF AT LEDDY
By John Briggs
Free Press Staff Writer
An 18-basket disc golf course isn’t coming to Burlington’s Leddy Park.
The Parks and Recreation Commission made that decision Tuesday before a crowd of about 60.
The commissioners did agree by a 4-1 vote to consider a 9-basket course at Leddy if it were professionally designed with input from the city arborist and county forester to minimize its impact on the woods and was located east of the parking lot and west of the athletic field and well away from high traffic areas. They made clear that their openness to consider such a plan didn’t suggest they would approve it.
Commissioner Dave Hartnett voted against the smaller course, saying it made little sense reviewing plans for a course that wouldn’t be suitable for disc golf tournaments. He said it would be preferable to find a location in the city suitable for an 18-basket course.
Disc golf is scored like traditional golf but uses Frisbee-like discs that are aimed at a basket on a pole.Parks Director Wayne Gross recommended that the course not be built. In a memo to the commission he said the estimated 1,000 disc golfers who would use the course each week could impinge on the quiet in the Leddy Park woods and lead to “significant” soil and root impaction that could allow “the spread of non-native invasive (plant) species.”
Gross concluded the course “would have a significant adverse impact” on the Leddy Park woods. “Given the strong public support for preserving the natural qualities of these woodlands,” he said, “I recommend that a disc golf course not be built in Leddy Park.”
Mayor Bob Kiss also weighed in, telling the commission in a memo Tuesday that as the discussion has moved along, “it’s become clearer to me that disc golf is not an appropriate activity for Leddy Park in the areas where it’s proposed and I recommend against it.”
Gross and the commission approved the proposal last summer from the BTown Disc Golf Club to build the course and, without involving the public in the decision, allowed the group to begin cutting fairways through the woods under the supervision of the city arborist.
Within days, it became clear that a sizable number of residents didn’t want a course through the woods, citing concerns about alcohol use, increased traffic and noise and damage to the woods. Others were outraged that the work began without the public having been given a chance to comment.
A crowd of about 150 turned out Sept. 3 for a tumultuous public meeting, and Gross apologized for not informing them before work began. Not everyone at the meeting was opposed to the course. The disc golf group also drew many supporters.
Gross put an end to additional work on the course in early September, and the commission created a seven-person working group that throughout the winter studied the issue. They drew a crowd of about 100 to the Miller Recreation Center when they reported their views to the commission in late April. The group divided 4-3 in favor of the course.
Tuesday’s compromise proposal for a smaller course will not be the last word on the issue. In September the City Council indicated it wanted to get involved if work on the course were to resume. Gross suggested the commission notify the council of Tuesday’s decision.After the meeting some opponents of disc golf made clear their unhappiness with the commission’s willingness to review a 9-basket course at Leddy Park. “I don’t feel it’s appropriate to have any disc golf (there),” Jim Court said.
Mark Barlow, another opponent, said disc golf would change the character of the park. He said he is unhappy the issue might be revisited.
Adam Quinn, a member of the BTown club, said he was encouraged that the commission had overcome “a lot of misinformation” from opponents of the course and understood that “it’s a great sport, a safe sport and compatible with Leddy Park.”
Commissioner Carolyn Hanson spent several minutes before announcing her vote chastising some in the crowd for their manners during the nine-month debate.
“I have felt at times attacked,” she said. She commended the working group for sticking at its work in an unpleasant atmosphere and said she was disappointed that some public meetings erupted in “claps and hisses and boos” as individuals spoke.
She said that some in the debate displayed “a very intense mentality that is not good for our community.”
Note: Many in the audience were dismayed at the mentality displayed by some parks commission members. It is not good for our community to have people on a city commission with so little regard for public opinion.
Free Press Staff Writer
An 18-basket disc golf course isn’t coming to Burlington’s Leddy Park.
The Parks and Recreation Commission made that decision Tuesday before a crowd of about 60.
The commissioners did agree by a 4-1 vote to consider a 9-basket course at Leddy if it were professionally designed with input from the city arborist and county forester to minimize its impact on the woods and was located east of the parking lot and west of the athletic field and well away from high traffic areas. They made clear that their openness to consider such a plan didn’t suggest they would approve it.
Commissioner Dave Hartnett voted against the smaller course, saying it made little sense reviewing plans for a course that wouldn’t be suitable for disc golf tournaments. He said it would be preferable to find a location in the city suitable for an 18-basket course.
Disc golf is scored like traditional golf but uses Frisbee-like discs that are aimed at a basket on a pole.Parks Director Wayne Gross recommended that the course not be built. In a memo to the commission he said the estimated 1,000 disc golfers who would use the course each week could impinge on the quiet in the Leddy Park woods and lead to “significant” soil and root impaction that could allow “the spread of non-native invasive (plant) species.”
Gross concluded the course “would have a significant adverse impact” on the Leddy Park woods. “Given the strong public support for preserving the natural qualities of these woodlands,” he said, “I recommend that a disc golf course not be built in Leddy Park.”
Mayor Bob Kiss also weighed in, telling the commission in a memo Tuesday that as the discussion has moved along, “it’s become clearer to me that disc golf is not an appropriate activity for Leddy Park in the areas where it’s proposed and I recommend against it.”
Gross and the commission approved the proposal last summer from the BTown Disc Golf Club to build the course and, without involving the public in the decision, allowed the group to begin cutting fairways through the woods under the supervision of the city arborist.
Within days, it became clear that a sizable number of residents didn’t want a course through the woods, citing concerns about alcohol use, increased traffic and noise and damage to the woods. Others were outraged that the work began without the public having been given a chance to comment.
A crowd of about 150 turned out Sept. 3 for a tumultuous public meeting, and Gross apologized for not informing them before work began. Not everyone at the meeting was opposed to the course. The disc golf group also drew many supporters.
Gross put an end to additional work on the course in early September, and the commission created a seven-person working group that throughout the winter studied the issue. They drew a crowd of about 100 to the Miller Recreation Center when they reported their views to the commission in late April. The group divided 4-3 in favor of the course.
Tuesday’s compromise proposal for a smaller course will not be the last word on the issue. In September the City Council indicated it wanted to get involved if work on the course were to resume. Gross suggested the commission notify the council of Tuesday’s decision.After the meeting some opponents of disc golf made clear their unhappiness with the commission’s willingness to review a 9-basket course at Leddy Park. “I don’t feel it’s appropriate to have any disc golf (there),” Jim Court said.
Mark Barlow, another opponent, said disc golf would change the character of the park. He said he is unhappy the issue might be revisited.
Adam Quinn, a member of the BTown club, said he was encouraged that the commission had overcome “a lot of misinformation” from opponents of the course and understood that “it’s a great sport, a safe sport and compatible with Leddy Park.”
Commissioner Carolyn Hanson spent several minutes before announcing her vote chastising some in the crowd for their manners during the nine-month debate.
“I have felt at times attacked,” she said. She commended the working group for sticking at its work in an unpleasant atmosphere and said she was disappointed that some public meetings erupted in “claps and hisses and boos” as individuals spoke.
She said that some in the debate displayed “a very intense mentality that is not good for our community.”
Note: Many in the audience were dismayed at the mentality displayed by some parks commission members. It is not good for our community to have people on a city commission with so little regard for public opinion.
May 18, 2009
RECOMMENDATION, Parks Director to Parks Commission:
TO: Parks and Recreation Commissioners
FROM: Wayne E. Gross, Director
RE: Disc Golf Recommendation
DATE: May 14, 2009
...after carefully considering this matter, my view is that the development of the disc golf course, regardless of size and exact location, would have a significant adverse impact on the woodlands of Leddy Park. Given the strong public support for preserving the natural qualities of these woodlands, I recommend that a disc golf course not be built in Leddy Park. While I do believe that having a course in Burlington would be an asset to the City, it does not have to be in Leddy Park and in my view should not be constructed here. With that being said, I am not prepared to suggest any alternative locations for a disc golf course at this time. There may in fact not be a suitable location within an existing city park. This would require considerable further study and should include other lands in the city as well as park sites. I hope this information is useful to you as you deliberate this important policy question.
May 15, 2009
TRAIL SYSTEM in LEDDY PARK
Residents are upset that the trail system in Leddy Park has been misrepresented in aerial maps of the park used by B'Town to promote their 18 hole golf course. They have withdrawn the course plan, but the fairways have already been cut and a final vote by Parks Commission is May 19, Miller Community Center at 5 pm.
The map above is missing most of the walking trails, which have been added to the map below. The red dots on both maps are statistically probable impact areas where the discs will fly. The red dot areas impact all of the walking trails, and the bikepath (the green line).
The map above is missing most of the walking trails, which have been added to the map below. The red dots on both maps are statistically probable impact areas where the discs will fly. The red dot areas impact all of the walking trails, and the bikepath (the green line).
May 12, 2009
Please, no playing disc golf in Leddy Park.
Disc golf serves small minority
Within the next few months the Burlington City Council will likely vote on a measure that is the de facto equivalent of blocking 99 percent of its residents from using 90 percent of one of its city parks. That measure is whether Leddy Park's wooded areas should be turned into an 18 hole disc golf course. Yes, the city will retain technical ownership of the entire park. But ....
Imagine yourself as being a nongolfer as you attempt to walk the fairways of an in-use regular golf course. Would you feel welcome? Of course not. Unkind words would surely fly, and I would expect fists would occasionally fly, too. The same will be true of disc golf at Leddy park.
If only 1 percent of Burlington's residents play disc golf, the other 99 percent will be unwelcome to use a huge percentage of Leddy Park, an area that is now a quiet and tranquil wooded area with walking trails and wonderful wildlife viewing opportunities. Substantial tree cutting has already happened in anticipation of approval.
Let the City Council know how you feel. Better yet, attend their meetings. The park is for everyone, not just the probably fewer than 1 percent of residents that play disc golf.
PETER LARSEN
Williston
May 7, 2009
Parks Dept Set A Bad Example for Youth
Pictures of the "Fort" taken on May 7, 2009. at 10:45 a.m. It is located about 100 yards east of the Dale Road gates-about 50 yards in from the path, just above disc golf fairway/hole #4 on the map.
It's pretty dramatic- many trees were cut and debarked, especially many striped maple. The railroad ties that had been placed at the south end of the marathon trail were moved to this fort.
Note: Parks Dept. disregard for the woodlands, cutting and piling up trees in areas where disc golf was proposed, set a bad example for youth in the area. Similarly, Parks Dept. removed leddypark.org signs from public space before a Parks Commission meeting, and the signs were stolen during the meeting. This culture of disrespect is not good for our community.
May 1, 2009
Comments on video posted at Seven Days
Comment, Maeve Cohen [North End resident]
Thanks for covering this issue. From the video it appears that you could use more insight into why people are opposed to disc golf in Leddy Park. I have lived on Fern Street which borders the park for the past year, and have been a Burlington resident for 16 years. I walk through the Leddy Park woods to the beach on a daily basis. Prior to that I lived in the South End of Burlington and have been traveling to Leddy Park many years. While I am now a direct neighbor of this park, I had just as much interest and concern for protection of this small slice of urban woodland while living elsewhere in Burlington. The people in opposition to disc golf in the woods have been characterized in your piece as just a group of neighbors near the park, and that is not true. This jewel of a park belongs to everyone in Burlington.
In making this decision about disc golf it is extremely important to consider how this area of the city has grown since Leddy Park was loosely classified as recreational space. I met a business owner in the North Avenue plaza who grew up on Gosse Court, the very street where the Miller Center is now. When she was raised on Gosse Court there were only two houses on the street and it was actually still a dirt road. All along that street were woods where she played. This is not a deceased ancestor. This is a woman still alive and working, so the changes to the New North End in terms of open space have happened in a very short time. Today the entire North End is similar to Gosse Court -- one house after another, one street after another. Now that children and adults no longer have pockets of forest next to their homes anywhere in this suburban stretch, the Leddy Park woods are absolutely invaluable. Leddy is very much woven into the fabric of this neighborhood and this city as a place of respite and enjoyment which is by no means unused. The land must be carefully considered in the context of what we have left for open space now as opposed to when the city first acquired the park.
This decision also requires the important definition of what constitutes "recreation". The woman on the working group who raised the issue of defining what recreation means was speaking to the real heart of this matter. There are already several forms of competitive sports going on in Leddy Park. These activities are done mainly by children and young men. There is also walking and other forms of exercise done on the wooded trails, along with learning, observing nature, and just plain decompressing that is made possible by access to these rare beautiful woods by the lake. These activities seem to be done mostly by mothers with young children and middle-age/older men and women. Elders tend to get their exercise by walking, and many express a deep enjoyment of walking in nature. I would hope that this form of recreation is not to be discounted by Parks and Rec. Are elders and others who don't do organized sports less entitled to use these woods for their form of recreation? When I walk in the woods I am "active". This IS recreational use of this park. Because an activity is not competitive does not mean that it should be labeled as "passive". Passive recreation is an outdated term for describing recreation and I believe activities should be defined as competitive or non-competitive.
If the City Council truly is committed to the Burlington Livable Community Project which is looking to improve life for the future demographic changes which are coming to this city, then the prospect of a relatively small sporting group altering a priceless natural park is a very, very big issue. In the future demographic shift which is already occurring this park would be used by an even larger population of seniors. The Burlington Livable Community Project can be researched on the web. It's very much related to this debate in Leddy Park.
While at the public meeting the other night, I was surrounded on all sides by proponents of disc golf. As the elder women spoke of birds, animals, quietude, these people sat snickering and making audible mocking comments. This repulsed me, and I couldn't help but think, "Is this the kind of person we want more of in the woods of Leddy Park???" Do I want to walk in the woods near people who make snide remarks about grandmothers who grew up with this park? Is this the kind of integrity that makes Burlington the caring city that it is?" Certainly not. I venture to guess it could have been the same people who stole all the yellow signs directing people to the meeting.
I myself am not a senior citizen, just someone who has not lost a connection with nature. I am raising two children and have spent much time with my family in Leddy Park. There is a palpable sense of wonder when we enter the woods from the neighborhood. My toddler always wants to get out of the stroller and discover a different world. He says with awe, "We're in the WOODS now!" And he asks about how the tree fell over, or why those mushrooms grow on the branches, or what was that bird saying?" How can it be described to people who see a forest as a place to be trampled for yet more organized sporting... how can it be described that it is of incredible value to be able to show our children a world other than a plastic sterile playground with uniform wood chips, noise and car exhaust in the air?
When my oldest son was small we lived in downtown Burlington and as a single parent I did not have a car. I used to take him on the bus out here to Leddy Park frequently to explore the woods and enjoy the beach. Not everyone in this town has cars as most of the disc golfers do. Not everyone in this city is able to take their children out of town to the country for a river swim, to the mountains for skiing, to Florida in winter for vacation. I think it's safe to say that most of the college students around Burlington and others who play disc golf have the ability to do those things. But Leddy Park belongs to ALL of the residents in this city. Leddy, in its present state is an invaluable piece of beauty for everyone, including those with no cars and little money to take their kids to experience nature outside of town. It's on a bus route. I used it all the time. My children benefitted immensely from these outings we called little vacations. Now I am lucky enough to live right next to this gem of a park which currently offers a perfect balance of recreation for those who like competitive organized sports, as well for those who like walking, observing wildlife, breathing fresh air, and swimming at an uncrowded beach.
Lastly, my biggest concern of all is one which no one has mentioned yet, and that is the beach itself. I go to Leddy Beach every single day during the warm months, whether it is on my morning walk, or to bring my kids for a swim. I choose to go to Leddy over other beaches precisely because of the character of this beach. It does not have large groups of people drinking alcohol, smoking, playing loud music, and making vociferous comments about women as they walk by. There are no lifeguards, no whistles blowing, and people are free to just have a calm day in a beautiful place. In short, Leddy Beach does not have these negative things which I'm certain would change if large groups were coming down to the beach after their games and tournaments. I go to Leddy Beach because it is an amazing, pristine, peaceful and safe place to enjoy the lake. Everyone is there because they truly appreciate the location and they want to be there, and not as a place to drink some beer and hang out with a crowd after a game. If disc golf were allowed into the woods, then this beloved beach would change drastically. People have talked of the pollution of the lake with the increased run-off of car oil in the parking lot. What about the immediate beach water? What would become of the clear water with a parking lot full of cars?
I am kept awake at night with the prospect of this unthinkable mistake happening to Leddy Beach and Park. I urge the decision-makers not to allow disc golf to go into Leddy Park and destroy the walking paths and beach which are absolute treasures to the residents of Burlington. I for one, would no longer take my two-year-old walking in the woods with discs flying. We would be unable to use that precious sanctuary that I have enjoyed for 16 years, and some seniors have cherished their whole lives. Having access to nature is every bit as important to a healthy city as adding another competitive sport for a relative few. I think that disc golf is a fine activity in an appropriate place. It should not under any circumstances, be located in Leddy Park.
Sincerely,
Maeve Cohen [North End resident]
_____________________________________________________________
Comment, Brendan Bush, Disc Golf Technical Adviser: great video Eva.
Apr 29, 2009
Parks Commission meeting started late because they didn't have a quorum. 100 people waited for 3 members who arrived 35-45 minutes late.
The first item of business was a charter boat owner who had a creative proposal for paying his dock use fees to the city. He asked the Parks Commission to approve the concept of his proposal, and he'd work out the details with Wayne Gross later. We groaned! That is exactly how we got disc golf fairways cut in Leddy Park! Approval of Concept?..... OBJECTION!
Joy McGarvey reads from comments by Sue Morse, noted forester and founder of Keeping Track. Sue confirmed that Leddy woods is part of a wildlife corridor that provides essential connectivity between Rock Point, Leddy Park, Appletree Point and the Intervale.33 residents spoke in favor of Leddy Park woodlands preservation, and against disc golf in what is a mixed use park. Leddy Park is zoned RCO/RG (Recreation, Conservation, Open-Space, Recreation/Greenspace). People understand that to mean open space and woodland trails are to be protected; they say that wall-to-wall sports fields were never intended to fill Leddy Park. Many people testified that locating a disc golf course near walking trails is not safe!
17 people spoke in favor of constructing a disc golf course in Leddy Park. Everyone spoke generally favorably regarding the sport itself, and opponents urged the city to find an appropriate location for B'Town to play disc golf.
During the public comment period, Dr. Charles Seleen addressed commissioners regarding the Master Plan. He said "Leddy Parks already has a de facto Master Plan. It is a mixed use park. On the periphery there are sports playing fields for soccer, tennis, handball, lacrosse, and softball. There is a skating rink. In the interior there is a protected natural open space area comprised of an urban forest, walking trails and animal migration routes. This has been established for many years. The change to disk golf removes any 'mixed use' in the interior and destroys fragile open space that is shrinking in Burlington. Disk golf will discourage mixed uses. The golf course area will be a DEDICATED use--disk golf." 
The outcome of the meeting was that Wayne Gross will make a recommendation to the Parks Commission for discussion at their May 19th meeting, and the Commission will forward a recommendation to City Council for a final decision.
.
Apr 28, 2009
We walk in the Woods. Protect Leddy Woods.
Statement of Peter Larsen:
Within the next few months the Burlington City Council will likely vote on a measure that is the de facto equivalent of blocking 99% of its residents from using 90% of one of its city parks. That measure is whether Leddy Park's wooded areas should be turned into an 18 hole Disk Golf Course. Yes, the City will retain technical ownership of the entire park. But …
Imagine yourself as being a non-golfer as you walk the fairways of an in-use regular golf course. Would you feel welcome? Of course not. Unkind words would surely fly, and I would expect fists would occasionally fly too. The same will be true of Disk Golf at Leddy park. If only 1% of Burlington's residents play disk golf, the other 99% will be unwelcome to use a huge percentage of Leddy Park , an area that is now quiet and tranquil woods with walking trails with wonderful wildlife viewing opportunities. Substantial tree cutting has already happened in anticipation of approval. Let the City Council know how you feel. Better yet, attend their meetings. The park is for everyone, not just the probably fewer than 1 percent of residents that play Disk Golf.
Apr 27, 2009
Rogue Play Disrespectful of Process
Disc golfers continue to play on the newly carved fairways at Leddy Park, in spite of a rather half-hearted attempt by the Parks Director to call for a moratorium while the issue is settled by the Parks Commission and City Council.
The following exchange took place: "Please don't take my picture." Reply: "Please don't play disc golf in my park." "Your park? YOUR park?" "Yes, my park. As in local taxpayer." End of discussion.
Local taxpayers monitor disc golf in Leddy Park, and call Parks Director Wayne Gross when rogue players are in the forest. Parks Director says there's not much he can do about it. We wonder what he would do if people were skeet shooting, practicing archery, or driving golf balls?
The following exchange took place: "Please don't take my picture." Reply: "Please don't play disc golf in my park." "Your park? YOUR park?" "Yes, my park. As in local taxpayer." End of discussion.
Local taxpayers monitor disc golf in Leddy Park, and call Parks Director Wayne Gross when rogue players are in the forest. Parks Director says there's not much he can do about it. We wonder what he would do if people were skeet shooting, practicing archery, or driving golf balls?
disc golf at leddy -- risky mix
From: kapandy@comcast.net
To: danh1@live.com [Dan is a member of the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group]
Subject: dis golf at leddy- a risky mix
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:45:00 -0400
To: danh1@live.com [Dan is a member of the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group]
Subject: dis golf at leddy- a risky mix
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:45:00 -0400
Dan,
I understand that you are interested in this issue and wanted to share a point of view. As an Orthopedist I welcome exercise of almost any kind, especially when it brings people out doors, but I think that cramming a flying disk course into the walking paths at Leddy is asking for a medical incident in the form of a startled older resident who falls or someone who is dragged down by a leashed dog that takes off after a sudden flying Frisbee.-- perhaps a broken hip or shoulder will be the first incident the city is forced to reimburse.
I understand that you are interested in this issue and wanted to share a point of view. As an Orthopedist I welcome exercise of almost any kind, especially when it brings people out doors, but I think that cramming a flying disk course into the walking paths at Leddy is asking for a medical incident in the form of a startled older resident who falls or someone who is dragged down by a leashed dog that takes off after a sudden flying Frisbee.-- perhaps a broken hip or shoulder will be the first incident the city is forced to reimburse.
Basically, good activity, wrong choice of location.Dan, in my 20 years of dealing with injuries from countless causes, my instincts tell me that there is significant probable physical conflict in setting a disk golf course in Leddy Park. Thanks for your time, (please for ward to your colleagues on this committee)
Sincerely,
Andy
Sincerely,
Andy
Apr 26, 2009
DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN by B'TOWN DISC GOLF CLUB
"Disc golf working group recommends course in Leddy," posted on B'Town web site. B'Town Disc Golf member and technical advisor to the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group, Brendan Bush, reported this, and it is NOT TRUE.
March 25, 2009"Last night, our community won another big step towards bringing disc golf to Burlington. The majority of the city-sponsored Disc Golf Working group firmly supported disc golf in Leddy Park and all members of the working group expressed support for disc golf in Burlington. » continue reading "Disc golf working group recommends course in Leddy"
To Lisa Coven, Parks Dept. staff:
The disc golf working group DID NOT recommend course in Leddy, and the majority of the city-sponsored Disc Golf Working group DID NOT firmly support disc golf in Leddy Park. Do you think it is appropriate for the Technical Advisor to the "city-sponsored [Leddy Park] disc golf working group" to post disinformation on the B'Town website? He may be viewed as an authoritative source. Perhaps you could ask him to correct the statement, or remove the post?
Also, Wayne Gross's press release is incomplete and inaccurate, and this sets a very bad example for the above named technical advisor. Mr. Gross neglects to mention that the vote to support disc golf in leddy park failed; and he claims a B'Town proposal was accepted by the Parks Commission when their minutes show that the Commission approved the concept only, with many questions.
Finally, there are errors and omissions in the draft minutes of the Apr 24 09 [Working Group] meeting, which I am sure you will want to correct by consulting the tape of the meeting:
Lea
Apr 25, 2009
Conceptual Approval does not authroize construction
Parks Commission members who claim that conceptual approval is the same as final approval are wrong. Conceptual approval has basis in law. Conceptual Approval does not authroize construction, or pre-development site work.
Definition of Conceptual Approval in lawConceptual Approval, or Letter of Conceptual Approval, means approval of the concepts. Conceptual approvals are binding based upon the rules in effect at the time the conceptual application is filed on the public record. Construction and operation permits for each phase will be reviewed under the permitting criteria in effect when the application for conceptual approval was filed. A Conceptual Approval does not authorize construction.
DEFINITION AND USE OF CONCEPTUAL APPROVAL
Conceptual approval means the sanctioning or holding in favorable regard a general idea or non-specific notion of some proposed work. Conceptual approval does not automatically guarantee final approval of any subsequent submission. A conceptual approval of any project may be limited or further defined, in any manner the Commission members may wish.
Conceptual approval is understood to limit a proposal in terms of its general size, scale, materials and use. Any particular details shown in such a preliminary proposal need not be considered approved or denied unless specifically noted. With each conceptual approval granted, the final proposal, with details, shall be reviewed by the full Commission before the issuance of a permit for execution of the work.
________________________________________________________________On Feb 16, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Wayne Gross wrote:Over the last few years we have had at least two other groups that I can recall propose to build a disc golf course somewhere in the parks. Oakledge was one location that was proposed. The Commission did give tentative approval of an 18 hole course at Leddy-pending the completion of a final memorandum of agreement between the Club and the City. Hope this information is useful.Wayne E. GrossDirectorParks & RecreationWas the final memorandum completed?
If not: And if you only had a tentative agreement, why did you move forward and clear land with dg people at Leddy?
wgross@ci.Burlington.vt.usFebruary 16, 2009 1:25:02 PM EST
The agreement was being discussed and the basic concepts of the club building it and being responsible for upkeep had been agreed to so the Commission felt it was reasonable for them to go ahead and start the work.
Wayne E. GrossDirectorParks & Recreation
Getting to YES by any means necessary
Parks/Art/Culture Committee
Councilor Karen Paul, Chair
April 25, 2009
Councilor Paul:
Minutes of the July 15, 2008 Parks Commission meeting record that Bob Whalen recommended "conceptual approval" of a disc golf course in Leddy Park "so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies." Commissioners unanimously "approve[d] the concept."
Commissioner David Hartnett told us that he was voting on conceptual approval only, that there were many questions unanswered and they didn't have details yet. He thought the plan would come back for more discussion, and he was surprised when the tree cutting was reported. Other commission members are *now saying that "approve the concept" is the language they customarily use for final approval. The minutes support Hartnett's understanding. (Minutes copied below.)
People in Wards 4 and 7 feel swindled and tricked by the Parks Commission, and by Parks Dept staff who ran a series of working group meetings with a *stacked deck, and ground rules that changed repeatedly.
- The NPAs were invited to nominate representatives to evaluate a proposal to build a disc golf course in Leddy Park.
- The Leddy Park Disc golf Working Group was set up with 4 disc golf advocates and 3 other residents. All were instructed to communicate with their NPAs.
- Only three working group members communicated with their NPAs. Kearney, Jenkins and Hunt reported monthly, sought input at NPA meetings, provided updates to residents at NPA meetings and provided information between meetings on FPF. When they voted NO to disc golf course in Leddy Park, they were representing their NPAs. Other members represented their friends or the disc golf club.
- Early in the process, several working group members suggested that other sites would be better than Leddy Park. The Working Group was told by Parks staff that they could not discuss any other sites, that their charge was to evaluate the Leddy Park proposal only and vote on that.
- At the last working group meeting, Mar. 24, the vote was 3-3 (one member was absent). The meeting should have ended!
- But, the rules changed again. The working group was asked to make a list of recommendations for a disc golf course in Burlington, disc golf in general, and since there was no majority vote, one member from each side was invited to report to the Parks Commission on Apr 28.
- A press release from the Parks Commissioner also ignored the vote as if it never happened. He reported that the Parks Commission approved a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club. The July 15, 2008 minutes do not support this claim.
- The rules have changed again. Each working group member has now been invited to speak to the Parks Commission on Apr. 28.
We -- residents of Wards 4 and 7, and many other people in the city -- feel tricked and lied to. This Parks Commission and Parks Department are examples of government at its worst, process at it's lowest level of trickery. The working group was initially set up to favor disc golf in Leddy Park, and when they didn't deliver a majority vote, Parks Dept changed the rules.
Residents of Ward 4 and 7 respectfully request an opportunity to discuss this further with the Parks/Arts/Culture Committee and the Mayor. We want trustworthy process and accountability in city government, and since City Council and the Mayor appoints the Parks Commission, and the Parks Department director, we ask you to review this disc-golf-in-Leddy- Park mess and hold the Parks Commission and Parks staff accountable to you and to the taxpayers they serve.
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee member
Minutes, Parks Commission meeting July 15, 2008
VIIB. Consideration of Proposal for Disc Golf Course Development
Whalen explained that other groups had come to him in the past and that the current group has definitely been the most persistent, committed and organized. He recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies.
The club members then introduced themselves and explained that disc golf has been around for 40 years, serves several different age populations and is a lot like golf but is played in natural areas. In addition the club explained that the sport offers healthy benefits for players as well as benefits to the community. The location is proposed at Leddy and will currently occupy space that is not utilized. The club proposes to use existing pathways where possible and generally only remove underbrush and saplings.
The club stated that they had hundreds of people interested in this project and have formed a non-profit and intend to raise $10,000. They said they were asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input from the Commission and Department.
Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy and if a fee would be charged for players and was assured that people playing golf would not be directly on the trail but off the path and will also have out of bounds areas as well and there would be no fee to the City with the exception of some trash receptacles.
Ewing asked if there would need to be a lot of clearing of trees and was told very little and Nolfi asked if there were a lot of open spots and was told no as well.
Some concerns were raised about possible vandalism to the proposed project as well as some concern about college students and alcohol use/abuse and the club indicated that this has not been a problem at other facilities and they do not anticipate any at this location but would be mindful of these issues.
Allen asked if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet and also was concerned with too much signage and was told that they are currently in the process of doing some outreach and the signage would be minimal and they wanted to get further approval from the Commission before moving further.
Motion to approve the concept for a disc golf course. Hanson/Ewing. Motion carried.
Whalen explained that other groups had come to him in the past and that the current group has definitely been the most persistent, committed and organized. He recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies.
The club members then introduced themselves and explained that disc golf has been around for 40 years, serves several different age populations and is a lot like golf but is played in natural areas. In addition the club explained that the sport offers healthy benefits for players as well as benefits to the community. The location is proposed at Leddy and will currently occupy space that is not utilized. The club proposes to use existing pathways where possible and generally only remove underbrush and saplings.
The club stated that they had hundreds of people interested in this project and have formed a non-profit and intend to raise $10,000. They said they were asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input from the Commission and Department.
Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy and if a fee would be charged for players and was assured that people playing golf would not be directly on the trail but off the path and will also have out of bounds areas as well and there would be no fee to the City with the exception of some trash receptacles.
Ewing asked if there would need to be a lot of clearing of trees and was told very little and Nolfi asked if there were a lot of open spots and was told no as well.
Some concerns were raised about possible vandalism to the proposed project as well as some concern about college students and alcohol use/abuse and the club indicated that this has not been a problem at other facilities and they do not anticipate any at this location but would be mindful of these issues.
Allen asked if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet and also was concerned with too much signage and was told that they are currently in the process of doing some outreach and the signage would be minimal and they wanted to get further approval from the Commission before moving further.
Motion to approve the concept for a disc golf course. Hanson/Ewing. Motion carried.
*stacked deck, "now saying": If organizations are allowed to operate with rules or practices that are hugely slanted, they are often defended with the old chestnut of "That's the way we've always done it." Each time I encounter this, I marvel at how otherwise good people can rationalize shabby practices.
_________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
To: "Greg Jenkins" <gregjenkins@burlingtontelecom.net>; "Lisa Coven" <LCoven@ci.Burlington.vt.us>; "Warren Spinner" <WSpinner@ci.Burlington.vt.us>; "Joanne Hunt" <joanne.hunt@comcast.net>; "Lea Terhune" <lterhune@comcast.net>; "Pat Kearney" <pgkearney@comcast.net>; <pch3@cornell.edu>; <abbi.jaffe@gmail.com>; <nick@hingevt.com>; <danh1@live.com>; <harryjwendt@netzero.net>; "Matthew Hoag" <mhogg@uvm.edu>; <brendanbush@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Steve Allen" <StphnAllen@aol.com>; "Russell Ellis" <rrellis@burlingtontelecom.net>; "Kurt Wright" <vinewright@burlingtontelecom.net>; <ward4-7npa@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Public Comment
> I have received a number of emails of late raising various questions
> about the Disc Golf Working Group. Let me clarify a few things. First,
> the Group is a public body and their meetings will be open to the
> public. A public forum will be provided at the start of each meeting.
> Please note that the purpose of such a forum is for the public to make
> comments to the Group. Regarding the scope of work for the Group, they are
> charged with reviewing various issues related to the possible
> development of a disc golf course only at Leddy Park and with making
> recommendations about this proposal to the Parks and Recreation
> Commission. They will not be evaluating other potential park sites for
> their suitability for a disc golf course. The Commission is interested
> in the Group's recommendation regarding Leddy Park and once this has
> been received, they will debate the issue and make a final
> recommendation to the City Council. I hope that this information is
> helpful to you and I look forward to seeing the results of the Working
> Group's efforts.
>
> Wayne E. Gross
> Director
> Parks & Recreation
Apr 18, 2009
CRESCENT WOODS NEIGHBORHOOD FORUM NO. 301 ***
> DISC GOLF - PARKS AND REC COMMISSION MEETING APR. 28
> By Lincoln Mead, Wildwood Drive
>
> PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR SAVING LEDDY PARK
> By Mark Barlow, Holly lane
>
> MINUTES OF DISK GOLF MEETING INACCURATE
> By Lea Terhune, NPA Steering Committee Member - Ward 4, Appletree Point Ln
>
> DISC GOLF AT PARKS AND REC. COMMISSION APRIL 28
> By Wayne Gross
>
> DISC GOLF - PARKS AND REC COMMISSION MEETING APR. 28
> By Lincoln Mead, Wildwood Drive, lsmead@gmail.com
> Fri, 17 April 2009
>
> Next Board of Parks and Recreation Commissions Meeting 5pm Apr. 28th at
> Robert Miller Community Center
>
> As many FPF readers are aware, Btown Disc Golf Club (http://www.Btowndisc.com) is promoting an 18 hole disc golf course throughout most of the remaining woodlands in Leddy Park that significantly alter this valued natural area that belongs to all City residents. If you can't make it to the park to see the large clearings that were cut throughout the park for disc golf fairways last summer you can view the course map & photos showing the extent of cutting at www.leddypark.org. These clearings need to be restored and replanted this spring.
>
> What effects will Disc Golf have on Leddy Park? The disc golf slide show at www.leddypark.org uses real pictures of real disc golf courses in Vermont and around the country to make the following 4 points.
>
> 1. More concrete in the park: In addition to numerous concrete "artifacts" throughout the park left behind by the prior land owner, an 18 hole course will require pouring 18 large concrete slabs throughout the park to serve as Tees. The Professional Disk Golf Association's course design guidelines specify the optimum size for concrete Tees to be 12 ft. by 7 ft. For 18 holes of disc golf that's over 1,500 sq. ft. in total. Additional concrete would be required to set the 18 Baskets.
>
> 2. Erosion and soil compaction: These issues will not be adequately mitigated by pouring concrete Tee pads or laying down thick beds of wood chips. The Tee pictures show the extent of erosion and soil compaction that can be expected surrounding Tees and Baskets in Leddy Park. Pictures of Baskets show the amount of wear and compaction that will be experienced in those areas.
>
> 3. Danger from flying discs: These dangers are real, especially in mixed use areas, as show by the variety of disc golf warning signs.
>
> 4. Other signage and advertising: These slides make the point that the woods would be filled with disc golf course signs and advertising on baskets.
>
> *Disc Golf Working Group to Report to the Parks and Recreation Commission Apr. 28*
>
> On March 24th , after hearing public comments running 24 to 3 in favor of woodland preservation, the working group appointed by the Parks & Recreation Commission to make disc golf recommendations turned in a 3/3 split vote. You can view the actual vote at www.cctv.org/node/72604. The working group will be reporting the results of this vote to the Parks and Recreation Commission at a public forum scheduled Tuesday, April 28th at 5:00 PM at the Robert Miller Community Center at the end of Goss Court.
>
> Please attend this meeting and voice your support for Leddy Park.
> -Lincoln Mead
>
> --------------------
>
>
> PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR SAVING LEDDY PARK
> By Mark Barlow, Holly lane, k.mark.barlow@gmail.com
> Fri, 17 April 2009
>
> Recent claims by Btown Disc Golf Club members on FPF, their web site, and in leaflets, mischaracterize opposition to their Leddy Park disc golf course proposal as the work of a few park neighbors who want to keep the park to themselves. Legitimate concerns and issues that have been voiced by many city residents are routinely described as half-truths and scare tactics.
>
> As a Burlington resident, tax payer, and park user for over 35 years, I find this ongoing attempt by Btown to divide our community and discredit and dismiss the concerns of our city residents, offensive. The group's actions and ongoing sense of entitlement to our public park, call into question the viability of this private club as a credible partner in the development of any disc golf course our Parks & Recreation Commission may choose to build.
>
> I am probably one of the park neighbors that the disc golf club refers to. I live near the park and helped organize LeddyPark.org when the disc golf threat began last summer. www.LeddyPark.org is a web site and community forum whose aim is to represent the interests of the many Burlington residents committed to preserving Leddy Park's remaining natural areas.
>
> Opposition to disc golf in Leddy Park is not limited to supporters of LeddyPark.org. In September 2008, over 260 Burlington residents signed a petition asking for an independent environmental assessment of the disc golf project and called for a Master Plan for the park before approving any further development. Both Ward 4 and Ward 7 Neighborhood Planning Assemblies (NPA) passed resolutions opposing disc golf in Leddy Park and requesting that Parks & Recreation work with the disc golf club to identify alternative sites for a disc golf course in Burlington, or surrounding communities. 3 out of 4 mayoral candidates in the City election this past March opposed Btown's proposed disc golf course at Leddy Park, and both Ward 4 City Council candidates expressed opposition. Ward 5 NPA just passed a resolution in response to the disc golf proposal at Leddy Park, calling for the creation of master plans for our city parks before making significant changes to park assets.
>
> Our city and its residents realize the important value of open space in building a sustainable and livable community. This sentiment has echoed through the many comments submitted by supporters of park preservation on LeddyPark.org. Leddy Park is truly special, and its natural areas have been valued for decades as they provide a unique refuge in a tranquil natural setting for recreational activities like walking, running, and wildlife watching. City residents commenting on LeddyPark.org use terms like "sanctuary", "quietude", and "oasis" when describing the woodland areas of the park.
>
> When conceptual approval was given to continue planning a disc golf course at Leddy Park last summer, city residents and current park users had not been given a chance to weigh in on the project, Parks & Recreation officials had never even been to a disc golf course, and approval was made on the false premise that the natural areas of Leddy Park were unused or underused. We've all learned a lot about Leddy Park and disc golf since last summer.
>
> I have attended most of the public meetings and forums related to disc golf at Leddy Park and after 6 months of discussion and deliberation I have still not heard city residents' concerns about environmental impact, a master plan, or safety adequately addressed. More importantly I have not heard a single compelling argument why Burlington would want to displace the well established current recreational uses and transform such a unique and special public natural area, valued by so many for so long, into a disc golf course.
>
> Hopefully our Parks Commission has the wisdom in the coming month to chart a course for the park we love that will provide for an inclusive process to develop a Master Plan before any additional development is done. And hopefully a Master Plan for Leddy Park will formally preserve and protect this scarce and valuable city open space for the continued enjoyment of so many Burlington residents.
>
> Let's Save Leddy Park.
>
> --------------------
>
>
> MINUTES OF DISK GOLF MEETING INACCURATE
> By Lea Terhune, NPA Steering Committee Member - Ward 4, Appletree Point Ln, leaterhune2@comcast.net
> Fri, 17 April 2009
>
> The minutes of the March 24, 2009 Leddy Park Disc Golf (LPDG) Working Group need to be corrected. There are many significant errors and omissions. Disk Golf in Leddy Park was NOT approved.
>
> A list of recommendations recorded in the minutes are about disk golf in general, NOT about disk golf in Leddy Park. That clarification is not included in the minutes. It is not included because discussion points of working group members, and subsequent facilitator input, are not included in the minutes. Pat Kearney stated several times that the charge to the working roup was to consider disc golf in Leddy Park only. He called for Leddy Park to be taken off the table before any discussion of general recommendations, because the 3-3 vote failed to support disk golf in Leddy Park. Kearney stated several times that disk golf sites in general were outside the charge given to the working group, and therefore creating a list of recommendations about sites in general was out of order.
> ~~~~~~
> There are no names of residents who testified at the public forum, and no reference in the minutes to packets of information and written testimony submitted to the working group -- for example by Ward 4 and Ward 7 NPAs, Friends of Leddy Park, a forester, a landscape designer, 26 residents and 3 B'town Disc Golf Club members. Minutes of the meeting need to include the names of people who spoke at the public forum, summaries of their statements, and reference to any attachments, documents, or displays they submitted as testimony.
> ~~~~~~
> Public testimony about instructions to working group members -- that they communicate with their NPAs -- was not included in the minutes. Four working group members -- Nick Hinge, Dan Herman, Matt Hogg, and Harry Wendt, participated in working group discussions, and voted, without any communication with their NPAs. Pat Kearney, Greg Jenkins, and Joanne Hunt met regularly with their NPAs, brought updates and information from the LPDG Working Group to their NPAs, requested input from residents, and conveyed residents' ideas and opinions back to the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group. This point was made in testimony during the public forum, but it was not mentioned in the minutes. I testified to this, I submitted written testimony as well, and I respectfully request that it be included in the minutes.
>
> There is a tape of the meeting available at the Ch17 website -- http://www.cctv.org/node/72604/ -- which can be used to correct these minutes, and they need to be corrected.
>
> NEXT PUBLIC HEARING: Apr 28, Parks and Rec Commission.
>
> Lea Terhune
> Ward 4 NPA Steering Committee
>
> --------------------
>
>
> DISC GOLF AT PARKS AND REC. COMMISSION APRIL 28
> By Wayne Gross
> Fri, 17 April 2009
>
> PRESS RELEASE - For immediate release on April 17, 2009
> DISC GOLF PROPOSAL TO BE DISCUSSED
>
> The Burlington Board of Parks and Recreation Commissioners is scheduled to receive a report from the Disc Golf Working Group at its meeting on April 28. The Working Group will present their report at a time certain of 5:45 PM at the Commission meeting which will take place at the Robert Miller Community and Recreation Center located at 130 Gosse Court. Immediately following the presentation to the Commission, a Public Hearing will be held where interested citizens will have the opportunity to comment on the proposal and the Groupâ?Ts recommendations. The Commission will not take any action on the report and the comments at the April 28 meeting. The report will be discussed and voted on by the Commission at its next scheduled meeting on May 19.
>
> The seven member citizen Working Group was appointed last fall by the Commission to evaluate a proposal for the creation of a disc golf course in Leddy Park. After initially approving a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club, work was stopped on the project after the Department received comments from the public about possible negative impacts on the park. After holding a public hearing last fall, the Commission decided to appoint a group to evaluate a variety of issues regarding the impact of the project on Leddy Park and report back to the Commission. The Burlington City Council has requested to review the decision of the Commission before any further work on the project take place.
>
> Contact:
> Wayne E. Gross
> Director of Parks and Recreation
> 865-7557
>
> --------------------Ed. Note: Gross fails to mention that a motion of the working group to support disk golf in Leddy Park FAILED on a 3-3 vote; and, the Parks Commission did not approve the B'Town proposal, they approved the concept only. They did not authorize clear-cutting of fairways, or construction of the course.
Apr 17, 2009
Press Release does not mention that working group vote failed to support disc golf course in Leddy Park
PRESS RELEASE
For immediate release on April 17, 2009
DISC GOLF PROPOSAL TO BE DISCUSSED
The Burlington Board of Parks and Recreation Commissioners is scheduled to receive a report from the Disc Golf Working Group at its meeting on April 28. The Working Group will present their report at a time certain of 5:45 PM at the Commission meeting which will take place at the Robert Miller Community and Recreation Center located at 130 Gosse Court. Immediately following the presentation to the Commission, a Public Hearing will be held where interested citizens will have the opportunity to comment on the proposal and the Group’s recommendations. The Commission will not take any action on the report and the comments at the April 28 meeting. The report will be discussed and voted on by the Commission at its next scheduled meeting on May 19.
The seven member citizen Working Group was appointed last fall by the Commission to evaluate a proposal for the creation of a disc golf course in Leddy Park. After initially approving a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club, work was stopped on the project after the Department received comments from the public about possible negative impacts on the park. After holding a public hearing last fall, the Commission decided to appoint a group to evaluate a variety of issues regarding the impact of the project on Leddy Park and report back to the Commission. The Burlington City Council has requested to review the decision of the Commission before any further work on the project take place.
Contact:
Wayne E. Gross
Director of Parks and Recreation
865-7557
For immediate release on April 17, 2009
DISC GOLF PROPOSAL TO BE DISCUSSED
The Burlington Board of Parks and Recreation Commissioners is scheduled to receive a report from the Disc Golf Working Group at its meeting on April 28. The Working Group will present their report at a time certain of 5:45 PM at the Commission meeting which will take place at the Robert Miller Community and Recreation Center located at 130 Gosse Court. Immediately following the presentation to the Commission, a Public Hearing will be held where interested citizens will have the opportunity to comment on the proposal and the Group’s recommendations. The Commission will not take any action on the report and the comments at the April 28 meeting. The report will be discussed and voted on by the Commission at its next scheduled meeting on May 19.
The seven member citizen Working Group was appointed last fall by the Commission to evaluate a proposal for the creation of a disc golf course in Leddy Park. After initially approving a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club, work was stopped on the project after the Department received comments from the public about possible negative impacts on the park. After holding a public hearing last fall, the Commission decided to appoint a group to evaluate a variety of issues regarding the impact of the project on Leddy Park and report back to the Commission. The Burlington City Council has requested to review the decision of the Commission before any further work on the project take place.
Contact:
Wayne E. Gross
Director of Parks and Recreation
865-7557
Apr 3, 2009
disc golf should not be played in Leddy Park
Per the request of Russ Ellis, I am forwarding the message that I sent to the BTown Disc Golf Club about the playing of disc golf at Leddy at the present time. I hope this information is helpful.
Wayne E. Gross
>Wayne Gross 03/30/09 10:02 AM >
> Hello All: I have received several messages indicating that some folks
> have been playing disc golf at Leddy using the fairways that were cut
> last year. I assume that portable baskets were being used for these
> rounds. Given the fact that this project remains very much a
> controversial public matter and no decision has been made at this time
> whether or not it will be approved, I ask that you inform all the club
> members that disc golf should not be played in Leddy Park at this time.
> I will very much appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Thank you.
>
> Wayne E. Gross
> Director
> Parks & Recreation
> 645 Pine St., Suite B
> Burlington, VT 05401
> (802) 864-0123 (phone)
> (802) 862-8027 (fax)
> wgross@ci.burlington.vt.us
Ed. Note: Rogue play in the park continues. Becauseof the rash actions by the Parks Dept., we have a de facto disc golf course in Leddy Park, with no warning signs to the public.
Apr 2, 2009
Notice to B'town -- no disc golf in Leddy Park
March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
To: Karen Paul
Cc: Steve Allen
Subject: RE: disc golf
Karen-
I have sent a message to the leaders of the disc golf club instructing them to notify their members not to play disc golf at Leddy [Park]. I had a staff person check out the park on Friday afternoon and they did not find anyone playing but it is a hard thing to always locate.
Wayne [Gross, Parks Department]
.
http://www.gdstour.com/gateway_wizard_in_depth.php
The added thickness in the outer part of the rim helps tremendously in 2 different ways over the Aviar. 1st, it adds structure stability to the over all shape of the disc by reinforcing it, because of the added thickness. Even a very used wizard will remain close to perfect roundness) The 2nd function is adding to the gyroscopic ness of the disc, Flat out a more gyroscopic disc will spin longer. The longer the spin, the longer a disc can hold a flight pattern. Bottom line, The Wizard is straighter and flies with a much tighter "S" pattern and will hold just about any line you put it on for a longer period of time whether its 30 feet or 300 feet, 20 mph or 70 MPH!!!!.
http://www.aracnet.com/~stuart/disc_report.htm
The speed of the disc is shown on the horizontal axis. The chart shows a good correlation between speed and distance. For example, a disc thrown correctly and efficiently at a speed of 50 mph is likely to travel about 300 feet. Reaching a distance of 400 feet or more requires a disc speed of around 70 to 75 mph. The circled group of plots seems to be a slight anomaly. It shows a group of discs that traveled a long distance, but with a slower disc speed. This might be attributed to the amount of spin imparted on the disc, the height that it was thrown, and wind direction. Increased angular momentum (spin) will help keep the disc stable and aloft for a longer period of time.
The weight and model of discs thrown varied from player to player. This factor also contributed to how fast a disc was thrown, and how far it glided. The most popular weights of disc used by the professionals in this study were 165 grams (11%), 172 grams (10%), 174 grams (14%), and 175grams (17%). The disc models that flew the farthest were the Discraft Xtra, Innova Teebird , Discraft XL, and Innova Eagle.
Additional speed and distance measurements were taken using amateur players. Table 1 gives the disc golfer an idea about the level of expertise needed to play in a particular division.
http://stay-at-home-dog.blogspot.com/2007/05/it-is-rough-road-that-leads-to-heights.html
In other sporting news, Uncle Matthew "Mattie" Myrold took 2nd Place in the 2007 Mandan Mountain Jam disc golf tournament last weekend. Not only does success at disc golf involve amazing stamina walking from hole to hole, but also a great deal of skill to fling your disc into the bucket (or to locate your errant disc under a pile of tree branches and leaves after you fling it into the forest). It's a great sport for those seeking a leisure activity without a lot of danger. Then again, one of the last times Stew played a round of golf with Uncle's Matt, Pete, Kermit and Russell, Stew ended up in the emergency room receiving four stitches to close the laceration above his eye caused by a (deliberate) disc to the noggin (thrown by Kermit). Anyway, a high-paw to Uncle Mattie. Well done, lad!
http://www.outdoorfunstore.com/discgolf.asp
Don't expect to see many freestyle discs out on the course. These discs, commonly seen at the beach, will prove to be bulky and lack the distance you'll want for driving. On the other hand, the sharper edges of a golf disc can be very painful if used for a game of catch!
from
http://us.f397.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=7493_36794456_1693741_1833_4924_0_33778_13102_495359325&Idx=8&YY=52808&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&inc=50&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=&head=&box=Inbox
"I was walking with a group of colleagues to the K-State Student Union from Eisenhower Hall to give a presentation, and I didn't even see him throw it," said Angelia Perry, an adviser in Kansas State University's College of Arts and Sciences. "I felt a sharp pain between my index finger and the middle finger."
She'd been hit by a student teeing off on K-State's unofficial but popular disc golf course. The cost: a torn collateral ligament on the middle finger of her right hand, six weeks in a splint and occupational therapy every other day. "I still have quite a bit of swelling," Perry said. "You can definitely look at it and see it."
Golf discs are smaller than the familiar Frisbee, but they can weigh just as much. The denser disc also has a thinner, sharper edge. "I've been hit with them and they hurt," said Richard H. Seaton Jr., a Manhattan lawyer who plays occasionally, though not at K-State
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=64909201&blogID=265235412
We played the first two holes without incident, if anything, I was doing slightly worse than normal. Then we got to the thrid hole. Everyone "tee'd-off" fine, the "incident" happend as I was going to get my disc. I threw mine quite a bit to the right, so I broke away from everyone I was with to retrieve my masterfully thrown disc. The second I looked back to see how everyone else was doing, Daragh's disc was less than a foot from my face.
I saw the blue disc coming at me. I even recall being able to make out the shiney logo on the disc signifying it as a "Wraith", but, as previously stated, it was less than a foot away, so their was nothing I could do. Inevitably, the disc hit me in the face, and I fell to the ground. Where that disc hit is definatly on the list of places I never wanted a disc to come anywhere near, right in the fucking nose. I could complane about how much that hurt untill MySpace cuts me off. Instead of that, I will just suffice to say that it was an indescribable amount of pain.
I fell to the ground as soon as I felt the disc and my face touch. I was, at first, angry at Daragh, overcome by the rage that is produced from getting hit in the nose, the anger stopped as soon as I felt the blood. As I was lying on the ground bleeding, rolling around in pain, and screaming I thought to myself that this was the kind of stuff that makes awesome internet videos.
There I was, lying on the ground, bleeding profusely, and an inconvenient distance to any of our vehicles. Luckly, my friends were there to help me up, gather my things and walk with me to Brian's car. Of course, along the way I was bleeding over everything I came near, I even had to spit just to utter a few sylables,(and yet no blood landed my my clothes, hellz right!). Once I was at the parking place I asked if anyone had an old shirt or something so didn't have to just stand there and bleed out like a retard. Thank God brian had an old Pink Floyd shit in his car, ( hopefully he doesn't want it back), so I used that as a bandage untill we made it to my house.
When I got home, the only one there was Claire. I told her to call the parents and tell them I needed to go to the docter. As she did this I went upstairs to clean the blood off of me. When I got to a mirror to look myslef over my entire right hand and alot of my left forearm were covered in dried blood. I removed Brain's shirt from my nose to see what it looked like and I was imediatly reminded of the cover of Andrew W.K.'s first CD. (I'll leave a picture of it at the bottom for referance.) As I was looking at myself in the mirror I saw exactly where the disc hit me.There was an impressively deep gash directly under my left nosteral. MY NOSE WASN'T BROKEN!!
My dad got home and looked me over before taking me to the docter. On the way there my dad preped me by telling me that the shot of novacane I will be given will hurt alot, thanks Dad!(sarcasm). After some nurses take my vitals and all that jazz Dr. Veit comes in to give me my stiches. I lay down on the table and he tells me grab on to the side because this is about to hurt alot. Very comferting. I was holding the washcloth I used to wipe away blood so I asked him if I could bite down on it. What he said next is not altered in any way, hence the quote marks, he said "You might as well, because you have no idea how much this is about to hurt."
That day I learned something. I learned that because of all the blood vesels in the nose, novacane washes out quickly.....TO DANM QUICKLY! I had five stiches put into my nose, and I felt the needle go into my skin on every single stich. Luckly, I now have one hell of a story to tell. ...well, thats it. Bye
http://norcalseries.com/Archive/2005_08_01_archive.php
Driven by his remarkable desire to volunteer his time to the disc golf community and efficiently report tournament scores, Steve Ganz also decided to follow the Frisbee mantra of Play Frisbee, Invent Games, with a new game I thankfully haven't seen before, Disc Golf Frogger. With 50 or so golfers lined up, across a 100 feet wide teeing zone, all throwing at a target 200 feet away at the same time in the mid-round, ace race competition, Steve Ganz decided the time he could save running through the target zone was well worth the extra 30-45 seconds it would have taken to run around everybody, in order to get those scores taken care of in a timely fashion. He made it past level 4, dodging drivers left and right, but then he got to the level where the slow 18-wheeler makes you wait and then jump through quickly to avoid both the semi and the speeding race car in the next lane of traffic. He made it past the semi, but the speeding race car caught up with him in a head on collision, right between the eyes. The driver, still near top speed upon impact, took him down, but Steve got right back up after a hazy minute or so, blood streaming from the face. He goes to the emergency room, get 4 stitches in short order by doctors and nurses who either had played ultimate, disc golf, or where at least familiar with the game, and is back to enter scores and get them posted on the internet before most players even make it home. Then he comes back the next day, and does it again. The man is simply incredible.
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/commentary/alttext/2006/06/71195
Disc golf, for those who aren't hip to the scene, man, is like golf only instead of the clubs you have your arms, and instead of balls you have flying discs, and instead of sand traps you have German shepherds. That's because most disc golf courses are integrated into public parks, so every jogger, dog and adorable, soccer-playing urchin is potentially going to be taking a disc in the eye. It's not entirely relaxing. Instead of holes you have baskets, which are called "holes," and like golf, you try to keep your score low and your swear words as creative as possible.
There are a wide variety of discs, divided into three basic categories: putters, mid-range discs, and drivers. Within each of these categories, each disc has its own distinct flight characteristics. There are golf discs designed to fly straight, turn left, or turn right, depending on how they are thrown by the player. The putters are designed similar to discs you would play catch with: e.g., a Wham-o brand Frisbee®. They are designed to fly straight and predictably, and very slowly compared to the other two. Mid-range discs have slightly sharper edges, which enable them to cut through the air better. These discs are harder to learn to throw, but can fly much farther. Drivers have the sharpest edge and have most of their mass concentrated on the outer rim of the disc rather than distributed equally throughout. Drivers are the hardest types of discs to learn how to throw; their flight path will be very unpredictable without practice. There are several classes of drivers intended for different distances: depending on a driver's “stability,” it could be a straight or turning driver. Golf discs typically weigh between 150 and 180 grams (5.3-6.3 oz.), and measure about 21-24 cm in diameter. PDGA rules prohibit discs weighing more than 200 grams, or whose weight is more than 8.3 grams per centimeter of diameter.
http://www.bcbsvt.com/pages/healthinfo/FrisbeeGolf.html
When you are out on the disc golf course it is crucial to be careful, courteous and alert to ensure that everyone can enjoy the game to the fullest. If you are playing with a large group and notice a smaller group behind you waiting for you to finish up it is common courtesy to give them a yell and let them know it's okay to "play through," meaning that you will stop playing for a few minutes to allow them to play the hole and pass you on the course so that you no longer hold them up. If you get to the tee for a particular hole and there is a group in front of you still playing that hole, do not throw your discs until that entire group has finished and moved on to the next hole. As one might expect getting hit with a flying piece of plastic can cause serious injury, so it is very important to make sure everyone around you is alert and aware when you are throwing your disc.
The NIKE plastic ULTRALIGHT’s are a much thinner, lower profile disc. Read FAST! Their sharp edge and low disc height allow them to be released screaming fast without flipping or showing an understable flight pattern.
The other issue for PDGA disc specs is assure there is some reasonable safety
to discs and disc materials used in the sport. The disc safety issue is real,
particularly in DG courses that in mixed use areas. One can make a reasonable
case that the PDGA should limit play in mixed use courses to 150 class discs or
possibly even less. This is probably going to happen only after some
'incident' makes it a necessity.
The other safety issue is if one takes an approved disc of stiff plastic and
sands a razor sharp edge to
http://www.azbasszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291280
... Disc Golf.
Actually you have to watch out for the Disc's...I have seen people knocked off their feet by them,the discs are small and heavy with a fairly sharp edge on the distance discs,and no they are not throwing at you, those that get close are normaly errant throws,Unless you happen to be standing by the baskets. I helped design that course when it was first installed many years ago and used to run tournaments out there
The main reason the course is to be moved has to do with safety reasons, said Facilities Management Director Brian Chase."The fact is we've had a number of students seriously injured," Chase said. "That's a serious liability to the university."
Two specific cases last fall required victims to get facial stitches and dental work, Chase said.Bill Wright, owner of The Wright Life, a disc golf store in Fort Collins, said the high traffic around the lagoon and disc golf course on campus is a problem.
"The current course isn't ideal," Wright said. "It's no fun when you go out to play and you have to wait for people. You really have to be careful about who might come into that flight path."
http://www.universitybusiness.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1041&p=3
The decision to relocate its disc golf course one-quarter mile further away from the center of campus was prompted in part by the increasing number of angry phone calls about it. Complaints made by pedestrians struck or almost struck by errant discs, compounded by continued vandalism to "improve" the course, such as tree limb removal and shrub damage-resulting in an estimated $10,000 to $15,000 in damage to landscaping over the last few years-led the facilities services department and recreation center to work together in search of an alternate location, says Gordon Gresch, facility manager of the Student Recreation Center.
Years ago, during the heyday of the original Wham-O Frisbee, students set up a makeshift disc golf course in an area on campus near the university's gymnasium. The games then were mostly of the casual, pickup variety, and use of the course was infrequent, notes Gresch.
In the last few years, the lighter Frisbee was cast aside for heavier, denser discs that could be thrown much farther. The sport of disc golf also grew in popularity, leading to the creation of a competitive disc golf team that regularly used the course. "It went from a recreational event to a sporting event," says Gresch.
But it was the increasingly close calls and direct hits on pedestrians during games that started the relocation discussions. After considering several potential sites that were away from the center of campus, one location stood out as the perfect venue-on the outskirts of campus in an area where there are no immediate plans for new buildings.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/15/WBG2TC6M0Q1.DTL
The department plans to bring in an independent arborist to evaluate the possible environmental effects that the popular alternative sport might have had on the area.
The department's Urban Forestry Division has recommended that the nine- hole course be taken down. Section supervisor Mike Hegerhorst inspected the course and the surrounding area last year and reported that the discs used for the sport have damaged the bark of trees and that the additional foot traffic from disc golfers has led to erosion problems.
"We encourage all manners of recreational pursuits in the park," Recreation and Park spokeswoman Rose Marie Dennis said. "But if we infringe on the health of trees, ultimately (Marx Meadow) may not be the best place for this pursuit."
http://www.ehow.com/how_2175505_pick-flying-disc-golf-targets.html
Tips & Warnings
- If you're making up your own course and designating your own targets, be considerate of others. An errant flying disc can injure someone.
- Select targets that are sturdy. If you must use a tree for a target, aim only at mature, strong trees. Young trees can be damaged if repeatedly struck with heavy flying discs.
http://www.discgolfassoc.com/news-why150.html
The disc technology has advanced to a point where discs are being thrown over 400 feet. These discs are sold to amateurs, some of whom are strong and capable of long throws once in awhile. On most golf courses that means a lost disc, lost time and some hazard to players, cameramen and other users of our parks.
Then came a couple of accidental hits in Japan's Showa Park. No one was injured, but you may have surmised that now no discs more than 150s gram are all that is allowed. Sensing this inherent problem our disc could create in parts in the United States, Dan Roddick and several others including myself, thought that starting a 150 class would at least give us a foot in the door (or disc in the basket) if, God forbid, something similar to Showa Park happens.
So now you know the 150 class is to preserve the future of our sport and is currently the standard for Recreational Disc Golf Association (RDGA) courses, not the law.
On a happy note, our 150 Cyclone will outthrow a 176 Cyclone, Isaac Newton figured that out before I was born, which was a while ago.
Try one before you pass judgment and don't allow a fairway that will cross a pedestrian area. Together we can protect the future of our sport, the sport we all love.
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/04/25/news/local_state/135458.txt
The city of Twin Falls recently decided to close down a disc golf course at Thomsen Park after only about a year, because of complaints from neighbors about disc golfers leaping over fences, crushing gates, crawling on roofs and even crashing a wedding to fetch lost discs.
"We were really surprised a disc could fly that far off course," Dennis Bowyer, the city's parks and recreation director, told the Times-News in March. "Some people can throw it 60 to 70 yards. The wind catches it. It drives. It hooks. It can go off course."
Rogers and Carrico said this is not a huge concern.
"We'll minimize the risk with signage," said Rogers. "We know discs will go there … Be respectful."
Vandalism could also be a persistent issue, Rogers and Carrico conceded.
http://daviswiki.org/Disc_Golf
WARNING: There are usually a few people in this park studying, reading, or relaxing on the grass and children playing in the play area. Disc Golf discs are harder and heavier than your typical Frisbee and can cause pain and possibly serious injury, so be vocal and be very careful!
http://skyways.lib.ks.us/towns/Colwich/minutes/m091007.html
- Councilman Suellentrop expressed concern regarding the amount of time being spent to maintain the disc golf course and questioned if the Council was aware of how much time was involved and how much the course was being used.
http://norwhuh.blogspot.com/2008/06/loyalty-beauty-additional-injury-at.html
i played disc golf for the second time last thursday. the first time was with normal discs with peter berdovsky in some woods in maybe arlington some time last year. we threw at rocks and trees and picnic tables. this time was with norwegians with fancy heavy compact (~8.5" diameter) rubbery discs -- each dude carried between fifteen and twenty discs that all hook or slice or roll in different ways -- aiming at ground-planted fancy-dancy metal baskets with chain catches.
these discs fly really strangely and even though most of the guys looked super-pro with their array of colorful discs lined up in their specially designed disc-golf bags (where are the caddies people?) they still didn't really seem to have such awesome control. any of the discs takes a good while to get used to - so yeah i am not sure that having just one disc was really such a disadvantage for a first real attempt. some other douche that also joined up just that day was throwing some practice throws before we really started. he decided to throw in my direction and decided to wait to shout "heads up" until just milliseconds before the disc actually hit me... in the head. thanks douchetard. anyway. whatever. it is almost healed. but it seems like i loose blood every time i try a new disc thing or new disc place. or. i am just an injury magnet.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LSH/is_4_11/ai_n25338477/pg_4
In the last few years, the lighter Frisbee was cast aside for heavier, denser discs that could be thrown much farther. The sport of disc golf also grew in popularity, leading to the creation of a competitive disc golf team that regularly used the course. "It went from a recreational event to a sporting event," says Gresch.
Apr 1, 2009
Update April 1, 2009
Neighborhood Watch reports that fairways have been cut, and players are on the course.
.
Mar. 24, 2009 -- Disc Golf in Leddy Park Working Group votes 3-3. *to see the complete meeting, go to Ch17 website. Next step is that the Parks Commission will discuss the results of the working group, and make a recommendation to the City Parks, Arts, and Culture Committee of City Council [Karen Paul, Chair]. Or maybe the issue will go straight to City Council.
Mar 31, 2009 -- As a result of complaints about rogue dg play in the park, letter to B'town from the city, informing them that they can not play disc golf in Leddy Park unless it is approved by the city.
April 28, 2009 -- Parks Commission has disc golf in Leddy Park on their agenda. The Parks and Recreation Commission meets the third Tuesday of every month at 5:00pm in the conference room at the DPW and Parks/Recreation Offices at 645 Pine Street. So why are they meeting Apr 28? Public Forum is at 5:30pm.
The Parks and Recreation Commissioners are:
- Barbara Nolfi, bnolfi@datavermont.com
- Steve Allen, Chair, stphnallen@aol.com
- John Ewing, ewing@burlingtontelecom.net
- Carolyn Hanson, Vice Chair, carolyn@burlingtontelecom.net
- Dave Hartnett, lisahartnett@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009
Testimony at Disk Golf in Leddy Park, Working Group, Public Forum
*to see the complete meeting, go to Ch17 website
To: Leddy Park Disk Golf Working Group
Mar. 24, 2009
Lea Terhune, Ward 4 NPA
Lack of Public Consensus. There is no clear community consensus regarding development within Leddy Park. During the process undertaken by the working group the group was advised by members of the Btown Disc Club and heard from a number of its membership advocating for development of a course within the park (Btowndisc.com). However the working group also received an outpouring of community sentiment in favor of protecting the woodlands in the park and/or opposing the development of a course in Leddy Park.
___________________________________________________________________-
.
Parks and Recreation Commission Meeting, minutes of July 15, 2008
- Bob Whalen recommended conceptual approval
- Club members asked to occupy “space that is not utilized”, using existing pathways, removing underbrush and saplings.
- Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on trails (off the path)
- Ewing asked if there would need to be a lot of clearing of trees (no)
- Nolfi asked if there would be a lot of open spots (no, as well)
- Allen asked if any neighborhood outreach has happened (currently in the process of doing some outreach)
- Hanson/Ewing, motion to approve the concept
Conclusion: The Parks Commission never approved construction of the course, tree-cutting or any other pre-development site work. Parks Dept. acted without authorization, and in so doing they violated the public trust and probably the City Charter as well.
.
Jan, 12, 2009. Lisa Coven, Parks Dept. staff, to LPDG working group member.
. The group agreed to be responsible for taking information back to the public and acting as their liaisons. … . Group members are responsible for representing their wards/neighborhood that they were nominated from. … . I also expect members to report back to their NPA's and even Front Porch Forums.
Working group:
}Ward 3: Harry Wendt: harryjwendt@netzero.com (did not communicate with NPA)
}Ward 4: Pat Kearney: pgkearney@comcast.net (attended every Ward 4 NPA meeting)
} Joanne Hunt: joanne.hunt@comcast.net (attended Ward 4 NPA meetings)
} Matthew Hogg: mhogg@uvm.edu (did not attend NPA, or communicate with Ward 4 NPA)
}Ward 5: Nick Hinge: nick@hingevt.com (did not attend Ward 5 NPA, or communicate with NPA)
}Ward 7: Dan Herman: danh1@live.com (did not attend Ward 7 NPA, or communicate with NPA)
} Greg Jenkins: gregjenkins@burlingtontelecom.net
Conclusion: The only representatives who had communication with their NPAs were Kearney, Hunt, and Jenkins. The other representatives did not communicate with their NPA, do represent their wards in any substantive way, and their votes should not count.
Ward 4/7 NPA Resolution, Feb. 19, 2009
~ Whereas the Parks and Recreation Commission has appointed a Disc Golf Working Group to evaluate the proposal for an 18-hole disc golf course at Leddy Park;
~ Whereas the Disc Golf Working Group has been charged to obtain input from the constituents who they represent;
~ Whereas the Chittenden County Forester, in a letter, dated September 22, 2008, stated, "…it would be hard to make a case that clearing the understory for disc golf (in Leddy Park) is consistent with maintaining long-term forest health or with the existing forest management plan.";
Now, therefore, be it resolved that:
The residents of Wards 4 and 7, as represented by their NPAs, are not supportive of a disc golf course in Leddy Park due to its adverse environmental impacts; and
The Disc Golf Working Group shall include this Resolution within the recommendations it makes to the Parks and Recreation Commission; and
The Parks and Recreation Commission shall direct the staff of the Parks and Recreation Department to work with the BTown Disc Golf Club to identify alternative sites for a disc golf course in Burlington, or surrounding communities.
The resolution was proposed by Nancy Powers and seconded by Michael Crane from Ward 4; proposed by Greg Jenkins and seconded by Phil Lavigne from Ward 7.
Ward 4: support the Resolution 42
oppose the Resolution 0
uncertain 12
Ward 7: support the Resolution 14
oppose the Resolution 0
uncertain 9
.
Recommendation to Parks Commission:
It is important to build consensus about new uses in a city park. Residents view the park as their own, and view the Parks Dept. as caretakers. Residents expect to be consulted, and we expect our opinions to be honored and respected. Some people may like to ride horses, or shoot skeet, but they shouldn’t have expectations that it is their right to locate their sport in Leddy Park. The attitude of entitlement on the part of B’town Disk Golf Club bothered people a lot. Leddy is a densely used park serving hundreds of families who walk to the park, and use the passive recreation trails in the park on a daily basis, 12 months of the year. Recommend NO BUILD -- disc golf course in Leddy Park.
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee
.
Disc golf in Leddy Park? NO
Last meeting of the Disk Golf at Leddy Park Working Group , Ch17, streaming video.
The Question: Disk Golf at Leddy Park? YES with recommendations, or NO.
The vote was 3-3. By Robert's Rules, that is a NO. Parks staff said they were not using Robert's Rules, they were building consensus and would fall back on majority rule. So they named the vote tally a split and decided the group should send two spokespersons to the Parks Commission meeting on Apr. 28.
The group decided to continue the meeting to make recommendations even though the YES with recommendations choice did not win the vote, Recommendations were solicited from the working group -- about disk golf in Burlington, or the process of the decision by Parks Department, the formation of the working group, etc -- and they said they would send recommendations they all agreed on to the Parks Commission.
Meeting of Parks Commission -- April 28.
Meeting to review working group process: May 12
The Question: Disk Golf at Leddy Park? YES with recommendations, or NO.
The vote was 3-3. By Robert's Rules, that is a NO. Parks staff said they were not using Robert's Rules, they were building consensus and would fall back on majority rule. So they named the vote tally a split and decided the group should send two spokespersons to the Parks Commission meeting on Apr. 28.
The group decided to continue the meeting to make recommendations even though the YES with recommendations choice did not win the vote, Recommendations were solicited from the working group -- about disk golf in Burlington, or the process of the decision by Parks Department, the formation of the working group, etc -- and they said they would send recommendations they all agreed on to the Parks Commission.
Meeting of Parks Commission -- April 28.
Meeting to review working group process: May 12
Mar 9, 2009
Hartnett Report to NPA Confirmed
from JULY 08 MINUTES, Parks Commission:
VIIB. Consideration of Proposal for Disc Golf Course Development
Whalen explained that other groups had come to him in the past and that the current group has definitely been the most persistent, committed and organized. He recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies.
The club members then introduced themselves and explained that disc golf has been around for 40 years, serves several different age populations and is a lot like golf but is played in natural areas. In addition the club explained that the sport offers healthy benefits for players as well as benefits to the community. The location is proposed at Leddy and will currently occupy space that is not utilized. The club proposes to use existing pathways where possible and generally only remove underbrush and saplings.
The club stated that they had hundreds of people interested in this project and have formed a non-profit and intend to raise $10,000. They said they were asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input from the Commission and Department.
Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy and if a fee would be charged for players and was assured that people playing golf would not be directly on the trail but off the path and will also have out of bounds areas as well and there would be no fee to the City with the exception of some trash receptacles.
Ewing asked if there would need to be a lot of clearing of trees and was told very little and Nolfi asked if there were a lot of open spots and was told no as well.
Some concerns were raised about possible vandalism to the proposed project as well as some concern about college students and alcohol use/abuse and the club indicated that this has not been a problem at other facilities and they do not anticipate any at this location but would be mindful of these issues.
Allen asked if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet and also was concerned with too much signage and was told that they are currently in the process of doing some outreach and the signage would be minimal and they wanted to get further approval from the Commission before moving further.
Motion to approve the concept for a disc golf course. Hanson/Ewing. Motion carried.
COMMENT:
The July '08 Parks Commission minutes are what Dave Hartnett recollected when he spoke at our February NPA meeting. His report is confirmed by the PC minutes.
Some key points:
* "continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies" is NOT permission to start cutting trees to build the course!
* Passive recreation areas with trails (existing pathways) is not "space that is not utilized." "Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy" ?
* Friends of Leddy Park also has "hundreds of people interested in this project" -- opposed to it, that is, and they are taxpayers. Allen asks "if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet' and he is told by the disc golf club members that they are "currently in the process of doing some outreach." ??? People in the neighborhood learned of the project when trees were being clearcut in the park.
* Whalen recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies. Disc Golf Club members say they are asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input. The commission gave good input, and voted to approve the concept. That was not permission to cut trees and begin construction.
* Ewing asks if there will be "a lot of clearing of trees and was told [no] very little" -- "generally only remove underbrush and saplings city proceeded to clear cut swaths for fairways." City proceeded to clearcut swaths for disc golf course fairways.
* Concerns about alcohol use/abuse-- this has not been a problem at other facilities -- a boldfaced lie. It is a common problem, as a simple internet search will confirm.
Well, it's easy to see that there was a disconnect between Parks Dept actions and Park Commission approval of concept. Dave said he expected club members would follow up on things like outreach to neighborhoods, and come back to discuss it further.
After reading these minutes, I think Parks Commission should have put a stop to this project immediately and required the disc golf club to begin the process anew. I think that anything other than that now is unacceptible.
Abbi sent the following instructions to the Working Group, including the disc golf technical advisors in the group: "I believe we can be successful in completing our stated goal of making recommendations to the Parks n Rec Commission." That is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog! Who's in charge here, anyway? Isn't the Parks Commission supposed to make decisions and recommendations to the Parks Dept?
Abbi also instructs the group regarding the outcome of their work, which was supposedly to evaluate information and vote "yes," "yes with recommendations," or "no" on construction of a dis golf course in Leddy Park:" I believe we can agree on some recommendations about how a project like this should be implemented," she writes. Source document: http://protectleddypark.blogspot.com/
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee
VIIB. Consideration of Proposal for Disc Golf Course Development
Whalen explained that other groups had come to him in the past and that the current group has definitely been the most persistent, committed and organized. He recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies.
The club members then introduced themselves and explained that disc golf has been around for 40 years, serves several different age populations and is a lot like golf but is played in natural areas. In addition the club explained that the sport offers healthy benefits for players as well as benefits to the community. The location is proposed at Leddy and will currently occupy space that is not utilized. The club proposes to use existing pathways where possible and generally only remove underbrush and saplings.
The club stated that they had hundreds of people interested in this project and have formed a non-profit and intend to raise $10,000. They said they were asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input from the Commission and Department.
Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy and if a fee would be charged for players and was assured that people playing golf would not be directly on the trail but off the path and will also have out of bounds areas as well and there would be no fee to the City with the exception of some trash receptacles.
Ewing asked if there would need to be a lot of clearing of trees and was told very little and Nolfi asked if there were a lot of open spots and was told no as well.
Some concerns were raised about possible vandalism to the proposed project as well as some concern about college students and alcohol use/abuse and the club indicated that this has not been a problem at other facilities and they do not anticipate any at this location but would be mindful of these issues.
Allen asked if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet and also was concerned with too much signage and was told that they are currently in the process of doing some outreach and the signage would be minimal and they wanted to get further approval from the Commission before moving further.
Motion to approve the concept for a disc golf course. Hanson/Ewing. Motion carried.
COMMENT:
The July '08 Parks Commission minutes are what Dave Hartnett recollected when he spoke at our February NPA meeting. His report is confirmed by the PC minutes.
Some key points:
* "continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies" is NOT permission to start cutting trees to build the course!
* Passive recreation areas with trails (existing pathways) is not "space that is not utilized." "Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy" ?
* Friends of Leddy Park also has "hundreds of people interested in this project" -- opposed to it, that is, and they are taxpayers. Allen asks "if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet' and he is told by the disc golf club members that they are "currently in the process of doing some outreach." ??? People in the neighborhood learned of the project when trees were being clearcut in the park.
* Whalen recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies. Disc Golf Club members say they are asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input. The commission gave good input, and voted to approve the concept. That was not permission to cut trees and begin construction.
* Ewing asks if there will be "a lot of clearing of trees and was told [no] very little" -- "generally only remove underbrush and saplings city proceeded to clear cut swaths for fairways." City proceeded to clearcut swaths for disc golf course fairways.
* Concerns about alcohol use/abuse-- this has not been a problem at other facilities -- a boldfaced lie. It is a common problem, as a simple internet search will confirm.
Well, it's easy to see that there was a disconnect between Parks Dept actions and Park Commission approval of concept. Dave said he expected club members would follow up on things like outreach to neighborhoods, and come back to discuss it further.
After reading these minutes, I think Parks Commission should have put a stop to this project immediately and required the disc golf club to begin the process anew. I think that anything other than that now is unacceptible.
Abbi sent the following instructions to the Working Group, including the disc golf technical advisors in the group: "I believe we can be successful in completing our stated goal of making recommendations to the Parks n Rec Commission." That is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog! Who's in charge here, anyway? Isn't the Parks Commission supposed to make decisions and recommendations to the Parks Dept?
Abbi also instructs the group regarding the outcome of their work, which was supposedly to evaluate information and vote "yes," "yes with recommendations," or "no" on construction of a dis golf course in Leddy Park:" I believe we can agree on some recommendations about how a project like this should be implemented," she writes. Source document: http://protectleddypark.blogspot.com/
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee
Mar 8, 2009
Working Group vote:
NO, Yes with recommendations, or YES?
Abbi Jaffe 03/04/09 10:22 AM
Hello Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group members,
We are in the final leg of our journey together. We have built a
great team and I believe we can be successful in completing our stated goal of making recommendations to the Parks n Rec Commission. I believe that we can reach some shared agreements and that we can find closure in our process.
Later today I am going on vacation, away from cell phones and email for 10 days. I want to give you some idea of what our last meeting could entail. I will continue to distill our process and find the best way to close our time together.
Our goal (the meeting facilitation team), before we meet again, is to get you the big picture of how this process will go after we make our recommendations. Specifically,
~ will disc golf be on the agenda of the next Parks n Rec Commission meeting?
~Will they be, when will they, or have they already decided anything about Disc Golf at Leddy Park? Disc Golf in Burlington in general?
~Who has the power to decide?
~Who has the last say? (Parks n Rec or City Council?)
~Will the Parks 'n Rec Commission automatically pass this over to City Council?
~Will City Council pass this issue over to the voters?
We don't know the answers, but we hope to reach some clarity before meeting again.
Homework: You (working group members and B-town Disc Golf advisers) came up with some homework that I think can be a helpful way for us to start our meeting together (after public comment). You assigned yourself with making a short statement about your opinion on this matter. You will have 2 minutes to share your thoughts about disc golf at Leddy Park, this process, or public process in general. Yes, I will 'beep' when your 2 min are up.
This group was charged with responding to the issues brought up by the public about Disc Golf at Leddy Park and making recommendations to the Parks n Rec Commission. This group has thought deeply about the issues. If the project gets approval then we will have wanted to have had our say. I believe we can agree on some recommendations about how a project like this should be implemented.
Homework: Go through the past meeting minutes. Review the recommendations/suggestions that we have brainstormed. At our next meeting we will have a brainstorm session where you can choose to bring those recommendations forward, or come up with other recommendations. The rest of that hour will be spent looking for the recommendations we can all agree on.
Just a DRAFT Agenda
-Meeting Set-Up: (review minutes, hear back from B-town Disc Golf... agree on agenda)
-Public Comment: Only 15 minutes will be allowed for public comment.
-2 Min Working Group Statements: you will have 2 min to share your opinion
-Agree on recommendations should disc golf get passed at Leddy Park (we will submit this to the Parks n Rec Commission)
-Vote on yes, no, yes with our recommendations
-Agree on recommendations about the future of this process
-Agree on recommendations about the future of public process
-Close meeting
You have been a great group to work with. I know we can have a successful last meeting. Lisa/Warren and I will be in touch with you the week of March 16th.
Thank you,
Abbi
Abbi Jaffe
Hello Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group members,
We are in the final leg of our journey together. We have built a
great team and I believe we can be successful in completing our stated goal of making recommendations to the Parks n Rec Commission. I believe that we can reach some shared agreements and that we can find closure in our process.
Later today I am going on vacation, away from cell phones and email for 10 days. I want to give you some idea of what our last meeting could entail. I will continue to distill our process and find the best way to close our time together.
Our goal (the meeting facilitation team), before we meet again, is to get you the big picture of how this process will go after we make our recommendations. Specifically,
~ will disc golf be on the agenda of the next Parks n Rec Commission meeting?
~Will they be, when will they, or have they already decided anything about Disc Golf at Leddy Park? Disc Golf in Burlington in general?
~Who has the power to decide?
~Who has the last say? (Parks n Rec or City Council?)
~Will the Parks 'n Rec Commission automatically pass this over to City Council?
~Will City Council pass this issue over to the voters?
We don't know the answers, but we hope to reach some clarity before meeting again.
Homework: You (working group members and B-town Disc Golf advisers) came up with some homework that I think can be a helpful way for us to start our meeting together (after public comment). You assigned yourself with making a short statement about your opinion on this matter. You will have 2 minutes to share your thoughts about disc golf at Leddy Park, this process, or public process in general. Yes, I will 'beep' when your 2 min are up.
This group was charged with responding to the issues brought up by the public about Disc Golf at Leddy Park and making recommendations to the Parks n Rec Commission. This group has thought deeply about the issues. If the project gets approval then we will have wanted to have had our say. I believe we can agree on some recommendations about how a project like this should be implemented.
Homework: Go through the past meeting minutes. Review the recommendations/suggestions that we have brainstormed. At our next meeting we will have a brainstorm session where you can choose to bring those recommendations forward, or come up with other recommendations. The rest of that hour will be spent looking for the recommendations we can all agree on.
Just a DRAFT Agenda
-Meeting Set-Up: (review minutes, hear back from B-town Disc Golf... agree on agenda)
-Public Comment: Only 15 minutes will be allowed for public comment.
-2 Min Working Group Statements: you will have 2 min to share your opinion
-Agree on recommendations should disc golf get passed at Leddy Park (we will submit this to the Parks n Rec Commission)
-Vote on yes, no, yes with our recommendations
-Agree on recommendations about the future of this process
-Agree on recommendations about the future of public process
-Close meeting
You have been a great group to work with. I know we can have a successful last meeting. Lisa/Warren and I will be in touch with you the week of March 16th.
Thank you,
Abbi
Feb 22, 2009
RESOLUTION
DISC GOLF RESOLUTION
Presented by Wards 4 & 7 NPA's
(To be presented to the Parks and Recreation Commission and the Disc Golf Working Group)
~ Whereas the Parks and Recreation Commission has appointed a Disc Golf Working Group to evaluate the proposal for an 18-hole disc golf course at Leddy Park;
~ Whereas the Disc Golf Working Group has been charged to obtain input from the constituents who they represent;
~ Whereas the Chittenden County Forester, in a letter, dated September 22, 2008, stated, "…it would be hard to make a case that clearing the understory for disc golf (in Leddy Park) is consistent with maintaining long-term forest health or with the existing forest management plan.";
Now, therefore, be it resolved that:
The residents of Wards 4 and 7, as represented by their NPAs, are not supportive of a disc golf course in Leddy Park due its adverse environmental impacts; and
The Disc Golf Working Group shall include this Resolution within the recommendations it makes to the Parks and Recreation Commission; and
The Parks and Recreation Commission shall direct the staff of the Parks and Recreation Department to work with the BTown Disc Golf Club to identify alternative sites for a disc golf course in Burlington, or surrounding communities.
The resolution concerning Disk Golf was proposed by Nancy Powers and seconded by Michael Crane from Ward 4; proposed by Greg Jenkins and seconded by Phil Lavigne from Ward 7.
The vote result:
Ward 4
support the Resolution 42
oppose the Resolution 0
uncertain 12
Ward 7
support the Resolution 14
oppose the Resolution 0
uncertain 9
RESOLUTION
Supported by Ward 4 & Ward 7 NPA's
(To be presented to the Parks and Recreation Commission and the Disc Golf Working Group)
~ Whereas the Parks and Recreation Commission has appointed a Disc Golf Working Group to evaluate the proposal for an 18-hole disc golf course at Leddy Park;
~ Whereas the Disc Golf Working Group has been charged to obtain input from the constituents who they represent;
~ Whereas the Chittenden County Forester, in a letter, dated September 22, 2008, stated, "…it would be hard to make a case that clearing the understory for disc golf (in Leddy Park) is consistent with maintaining long-term forest health or with the existing forest management plan.";
Now, therefore, be it resolved that:
The residents of Wards 4 and 7, as represented by their NPAs, are not supportive of a disc golf course in Leddy Park due its adverse environmental impacts; and
The Disc Golf Working Group shall include this Resolution within the recommendations it makes to the Parks and Recreation Commission; and
The Parks and Recreation Commission shall direct the staff of the Parks and Recreation Department to work with the BTown Disc Golf Club to identify alternative sites for a disc golf course in Burlington, or surrounding communities.
__________________________________________________________________________________
The resolution was proposed by Nancy Powers and seconded by Michael Cain from Ward 4; proposed by Greg Jenkins and seconded by Phil Lavigne from Ward 7.
The vote result:
Ward 4 support the Resolution 42
oppose the Resolution 0
uncertain 12
Ward 7 support the Resolution 14
oppose the Resolution 0
uncertain 9
Feb 15, 2009
DISK GOLF COURSE IN LEDDY PARK? STOP Wasting City Time, Resources, MONEY and Energy!
Dear Commissioners,
I am writing about the newest in a series of failures that have plagued the review process for the Leddy Park disc golf course proposal. This latest, an obvious conflict of interest for one of the experts sitting on the Disc Golf Working Group whose recent action calls into question the completeness and accuracy of any expert technical advice he provides to the group.
Brenden Bush and Peter Hess of BTown Disc Golf Club are to be "technical advisors to the DGWG regarding the design and operation of a disc golf course" according to the Parks & Recreation Department. In this role, one would think that Bush and Hess would be available when questions arose that required the input of a technical expert.
Anybody who has attended a DGWG meeting has seen the BTown members sitting at the table with other members of the DGWG actively involved in discussion and giving opinion on matters beyond technical aspects of the course design and operation.
Members of the public have recently been granted two minutes to give their opinion during the public comment portion of the DGWG meetings, while two Btown members are given hours of unfettered access to the DGWG while it deliberates. This is another process failure on its own but not why I am writing.
To my main point, Brendan Bush's February 13 post on the BTown Disc Golf Club FaceBook page calls into question his ability to provide the kind of unbiased expert information required by the DGWG and further, presents an obvious conflict of interest.
2/13/09:
Hey,
A lot of you have been asking what else you can do to help move the Leddy Park disc golf project forward, beyond showing up to give your public comment to the working group.The group opposed to the course is organized online and in their neighborhoods, and it's time for us to step it up and do the same.
So here's the deal: we're holding an organizing meeting on Thursday, February 19, and we want you and your disc-golfing friends to be there.
Where:
Sapa's Coffee and Tea
9 Center St. (between Climb High and Daily Planet)
Burlington
When:
7:00 p.m.
Thursday, February 19, 2009
RSVP:
Send an email to info@btowndisc.com or RSVP to the facebook event listed on our facebook page to let us know you are coming ( http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=51130228790&ref=nf )
We'll be going over our plans to engage and recruit more members of our community, and what you can do to help.We'll have talking points, flyers and signup sheets for you to use, and we'll give you some basic guidelines on reaching out to those in your neighborhoods, classes, offices and anywhere else.
An 18-hole disc golf course in Leddy Park will be a huge asset to our community, and we need to make sure that everyone in our community understands that.So please join us on Thursday, February 19 at Sapa's in downtown Burlington.
Thanks, and I look forward to seeing you there,
Brendan Bush
BTown Disc Golf Club
p.s. Please send this email to everyone you know in Burlington who supports this project, and ask them to join us on Thursday as well.
During DGWG member selection, the Parks & Recreation Commission were so adamant about not wanting to introduce bias into the group, that they felt it necessary to exclude neighbors whose property abutted Leddy Park, even when the those neighbors had been vetted by the NPA and offered as DGWG candidates to the commission. Certainly the actions of Bush would fail those same standards.
Clearly, members of the DGWG should not be involved in activity related to the Leddy Park disc golf proposal that represents a conflict of interest with their DGWG responsibilities. Bush's recruitment and organizing efforts in support of the Leddy course proposal are inappropriate and represent a conflict of interest while he is serving on the DGWG.
BTown Club members like Bush, who invested time and energy into getting a course built in Leddy Park before this current period of review started, are not the unbiased experts the DGWG should be depending on for technical advice. In fact they are just as biased as any park neighbor who does not want to see valuable park woodlands cleared for disc golf.
I'm sure you will take appropriate action to address this issue. But addressing this issue alone won't solve the larger issue surrounding the current proposal.
Our community would be best served if the DGWG were immediately dissolved and we stopped wasting city resources, time, and energy on a flawed process to find justification for the controversial and divisive proposal to place an 18 hole disc golf course in Leddy Park. Instead what is needed is the creation of a task force with a broader mandate to find an appropriate location for a disc golf course that does not require the destruction of valuable city open space, has the support of city residents including any neighbors, and meets the requirements of the BTown Disc Golf Club.
Respectfully,
Mark Barlow
Feb 13, 2009
a project where everyone comes together!
Phil Baruth's Vermont Daily Briefing has an interview with Andy Montroll:
VDB: Speaking real quickly about the New North End, I noticed that at that same mayoral debate — again, in a yes/no question — you opposed the development of Leddy Park into an 18-hole disc golf course. And you were pretty firm about that. Can you explain your reasoning there, and what you’d do with that issue?
Montroll: I think around 10 years ago or so I was down in Maryland visiting some of my family, and they took me to play disc golf. First time I was ever exposed to it. It’s a very fun game. A really great game. And I actually came back and told Wayne Gross, Director of Parks and Rec, that we should do disc golf up here in Burlington. It wasn’t one of the projects that I actively promoted or anything, and I was kind of disappointed that they never did anything about it.
So I think it’d be a great addition to our recreational offerings here in Burlington. I don’t think Leddy Park is the place to have it, though.
And the more I’ve been hearing about it, it seems that it’s really a very different use than what Leddy Park is currently being used for, right now. But there are places in the city where you could have it. Another one of our Councilors, Dave Berezniak has been looking at another site that looks like it could be really good. And it looks like there are some creative ideas —
VDB: Where would that site be?
Montroll: His site is where the city’s old landfill is. It’s been completely capped and, as I understand it, it’s completely safe there. And it’s a big, open area that could accommodate a project like this. There are other areas in the city where I think we could do something as well.
So, rather than focusing on just one location, that’s so controversial — I just don’t think we need to do that in Burlington. I think we can develop a project where everyone comes together and says, “This is great.”
___________________________________________________________________________________
From: "K. Wright"
Date: Feb 13, 2009 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Your Position on Leddy Park Disc Golf
To: Mark Barlow
> Mark,
>
> I actually am opposed to disc golf at Leddy Park--it was just the way they asked the question that was unclear to me. Andy was able to get a clarification on the question before answering and I wasn't. So yes, I do oppose it at Leddy and believe they could find a more suitable site for it.
>
> I have to say, I am just not a fan of yes or no questions unless they are on something really simple--for example I wasn't sure whether they had asked if I supported disc golf at all or whether it was site specific.
>
> If elected I can guarantee you the process will be better and I will not just accept this happening at Leddy.
>
> I am glad you e-mailed me Mark, so I could clarify my position. Feel free to share this, Thanks,
>
> Kurt
Note: I have observed, more than once, that Kurt stands with his neighborhoods, no politics about it. Lea
VDB: Speaking real quickly about the New North End, I noticed that at that same mayoral debate — again, in a yes/no question — you opposed the development of Leddy Park into an 18-hole disc golf course. And you were pretty firm about that. Can you explain your reasoning there, and what you’d do with that issue?
Montroll: I think around 10 years ago or so I was down in Maryland visiting some of my family, and they took me to play disc golf. First time I was ever exposed to it. It’s a very fun game. A really great game. And I actually came back and told Wayne Gross, Director of Parks and Rec, that we should do disc golf up here in Burlington. It wasn’t one of the projects that I actively promoted or anything, and I was kind of disappointed that they never did anything about it.
So I think it’d be a great addition to our recreational offerings here in Burlington. I don’t think Leddy Park is the place to have it, though.
And the more I’ve been hearing about it, it seems that it’s really a very different use than what Leddy Park is currently being used for, right now. But there are places in the city where you could have it. Another one of our Councilors, Dave Berezniak has been looking at another site that looks like it could be really good. And it looks like there are some creative ideas —
VDB: Where would that site be?
Montroll: His site is where the city’s old landfill is. It’s been completely capped and, as I understand it, it’s completely safe there. And it’s a big, open area that could accommodate a project like this. There are other areas in the city where I think we could do something as well.
So, rather than focusing on just one location, that’s so controversial — I just don’t think we need to do that in Burlington. I think we can develop a project where everyone comes together and says, “This is great.”
___________________________________________________________________________________
From: "K. Wright"
Date: Feb 13, 2009 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Your Position on Leddy Park Disc Golf
To: Mark Barlow
> Mark,
>
> I actually am opposed to disc golf at Leddy Park--it was just the way they asked the question that was unclear to me. Andy was able to get a clarification on the question before answering and I wasn't. So yes, I do oppose it at Leddy and believe they could find a more suitable site for it.
>
> I have to say, I am just not a fan of yes or no questions unless they are on something really simple--for example I wasn't sure whether they had asked if I supported disc golf at all or whether it was site specific.
>
> If elected I can guarantee you the process will be better and I will not just accept this happening at Leddy.
>
> I am glad you e-mailed me Mark, so I could clarify my position. Feel free to share this, Thanks,
>
> Kurt
Note: I have observed, more than once, that Kurt stands with his neighborhoods, no politics about it. Lea
Feb 6, 2009
Parks Dept. does not answer....
Wayne,
Please sensitize the disc golf working group to the issue of homelessness in our community. A good person to speak to the group would be Mike Schirling, Chief of Burlington Police. He spoke on the subject recently on Ch17 Live@5:25 . It is unkind to refer to homeless people as tramps, or as otherwise undesirable. A selling point for disc golf in any location in our community is NOT that it will displace or drive away homeless people. If homeless people are creating problems in the park, we have an excellent community policing program that will work with residents, social service agencies, and homeless people to resolve that issue. The solution is NOT disc golf.
And the trash that the golf course designer said they cleaned out of Leddy Park? They did not clean it up, they left it in piles and Friends of Leddy removed it. Why isn't trash cleaned out of the park by park staff?
Finally, I have some unanswered questions on your desk and I would appreciate answers. Our NPA steering committee meeting is this Thursday, and we have been asked to follow up on the way the working group was formed. You may recall that there was some confusion about the selection process, we gave you a list of recommendations, and now we observe that many people in the working group are affiliated with the golf club and have a clear conflict of interest in recommendations the group will make. Whatever your thinking was when you formed the group, we would appreciate hearing from you about it.
Lea
NPA Steering Committee, Ward 4
Please sensitize the disc golf working group to the issue of homelessness in our community. A good person to speak to the group would be Mike Schirling, Chief of Burlington Police. He spoke on the subject recently on Ch17 Live@5:25 . It is unkind to refer to homeless people as tramps, or as otherwise undesirable. A selling point for disc golf in any location in our community is NOT that it will displace or drive away homeless people. If homeless people are creating problems in the park, we have an excellent community policing program that will work with residents, social service agencies, and homeless people to resolve that issue. The solution is NOT disc golf.
And the trash that the golf course designer said they cleaned out of Leddy Park? They did not clean it up, they left it in piles and Friends of Leddy removed it. Why isn't trash cleaned out of the park by park staff?
Finally, I have some unanswered questions on your desk and I would appreciate answers. Our NPA steering committee meeting is this Thursday, and we have been asked to follow up on the way the working group was formed. You may recall that there was some confusion about the selection process, we gave you a list of recommendations, and now we observe that many people in the working group are affiliated with the golf club and have a clear conflict of interest in recommendations the group will make. Whatever your thinking was when you formed the group, we would appreciate hearing from you about it.
Lea
NPA Steering Committee, Ward 4
Feb 5, 2009
Landfill site would rate high!
I know we are all striving for a win/win solution to the dg dilemma. I wish someone would just say "I screwed up," so we could all start over, and move this idea forward with good process and a good location that residents can support enthusiastically. Together we can do it!
Wayne Gross discouraged the working group from considering alternative sites, but that does not prevent us from making preliminary inquiries about the landfill site on our own. We can talk with Dave Berezniak, Ward 2 City Councilor; meet with staff at DPW to find out what their concerns might be; and request agenda time at the NPAs (they book several months in advance) so we are ready to move forward in a positive manner. I expect that many of the present dg course adversaries will be supporters and help pitch the new site, because they have studied this closely and they have learned where a course would be appropriately sited, and where it is not appropriate.
I spoke with a dg player who was very excited about the landfill site. He said it would be a challenging and interesting course, with variety and beauty.
If you check a website that rates courses, you get a pretty good idea of how the landfill location would rate (high), as compared to Leddy Park (low). At best you're going to get 8 flat fairways in Leddy, none near the shoreline or ravine. Here's an example of the top-rated course -- which site does it remind you of?
Pros:
This course is set on a big hill overlooking ....
It has a major fun factor due to almost every hole being down hill. The designer did an excellent job of maximizing the elevation changes.
There is road around the park with parking spaces at different holes. You can park at any basket and play from there and finish there for a staggered start if it's busy.
There is a picnic area and playscape right in the middle of the course and the flow of the course comes back to the middle three times which is pretty cool. It would be a great place for a family reunion or DG party or tournament.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/
Keep thinking positive, and please look for common ground to resolve this dilemma peacefully, for the good of our community. And, please forward this email to neighbors.
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee
Wayne Gross discouraged the working group from considering alternative sites, but that does not prevent us from making preliminary inquiries about the landfill site on our own. We can talk with Dave Berezniak, Ward 2 City Councilor; meet with staff at DPW to find out what their concerns might be; and request agenda time at the NPAs (they book several months in advance) so we are ready to move forward in a positive manner. I expect that many of the present dg course adversaries will be supporters and help pitch the new site, because they have studied this closely and they have learned where a course would be appropriately sited, and where it is not appropriate.
I spoke with a dg player who was very excited about the landfill site. He said it would be a challenging and interesting course, with variety and beauty.
If you check a website that rates courses, you get a pretty good idea of how the landfill location would rate (high), as compared to Leddy Park (low). At best you're going to get 8 flat fairways in Leddy, none near the shoreline or ravine. Here's an example of the top-rated course -- which site does it remind you of?
Pros:
This course is set on a big hill overlooking ....
It has a major fun factor due to almost every hole being down hill. The designer did an excellent job of maximizing the elevation changes.
There is road around the park with parking spaces at different holes. You can park at any basket and play from there and finish there for a staggered start if it's busy.
There is a picnic area and playscape right in the middle of the course and the flow of the course comes back to the middle three times which is pretty cool. It would be a great place for a family reunion or DG party or tournament.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/
Keep thinking positive, and please look for common ground to resolve this dilemma peacefully, for the good of our community. And, please forward this email to neighbors.
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee
Science-based public input:
February 4, 2009
Dear Member of Parks & Recreation Disc Golf Working Group,
I am writing to offer my thoughts regarding the proposed Disc Golf at Leddy Park.
I have lived in Burlington for the past thirty-six years and feel very fortunate to have such beautiful parks. I have a degree in Plant and Soil Science and Environmental Studies and an ongoing interest in the environment. In the past, I worked with Warren Spinner on special projects as a volunteer and then as a contract and seasonal employee. I respect the hard work Warren does and that of Park Department employees who number a few but who have the awesome responsibility of maintaining hundreds of acres of heavily used parkland with dwindling resources. I have some idea of the pressure the Department must be under and therefore I appreciate Mr. Gross’s search for creative ideas that will bring in needed resources. Disc Golf could be a great idea but I believe the selection of Leddy Park is inappropriate for environmental reasons.
Main concerns:
- The woodlands at Leddy are not just patches of derelict land but instead the land acts as a buffer for the lake. While I agree that the woodland is not in stellar condition now, it could be. At a time when we need to be actively restoring woodlands along the lake, I question the wisdom of establishing a Disc Golf course at Leddy that would do the opposite.
- Disc Golf would undermine the health of the trees in this environmentally important area by damaging roots, bark and making the soil surface less permeable to water.
- Soil compaction leads to the creation of rivulets. Rivulets caused by compaction carry undesirable runoff quickly into lakes and streams. Conversely, soils that are not compacted act as a filter, allowing pollutants to percolate down into the soil before reaching the lake.
- At a time when we should be considering redesigning and ‘greening’ the parking lot at Leddy, a popular disc golf course could put pressure on parking at Leddy. More cars bring more pollution to a lot that is already too close to the lake.
- DPW recently received a grant to tackle the issue of urban runoff more effectively. They are hiring a person specifically to work on this issue. I wonder if there has been inter-department communication regarding the proposed Disc Golf course at Leddy?
Other concerns.
- Noise is a real concern for neighbors whose homes are in close proximity to the course.
- Safety – Discs move at high speeds. Given the mixed use of the Park, I wonder if other users can be kept safe?
- Parking - pressure on adjoining neighborhoods and commercial lots could easily become an issue. Historically, users of Leddy Park have parked in adjoining neighborhoods and commercial lots to avoid Park fees.
I hope that you will consider looking for an alternative site in Burlington for Disc Golf that will not compromise the limited woodlands we have that help to protect the lake.
Sincerely,
Jean Markey-Duncan
Jan 28, 2009
City Council Resolution
FRISBEE GOLF AT LEDDY PARK
Resolved by the City Council of the City of Burlington, as follows:
That WHEREAS, the Parks and Recreation Department with the endorsement of the Parks and Recreation Commission gave preliminary approval for thinning the woods at Leddy Park in preparation for installing an 18 hole Frisbee Golf Course; and
WHEREAS, the general public only became aware of this project by observing the work in progress; and
WHEREAS, when questions and concerns about the Frisbee Golf Project were raised by the public, the Department stopped further work on the Project, held a public meeting on Wednesday, September 3, 2008, attended by approximately 150 citizens, and announced that the Commission would reconsider the Project at it meeting on September 23; and
WHEREAS, the general public at the September 3rd meeting identified the following principle concerns, namely, (1) safety of pedestrians on the established pedestrian trails which closely parallel proposed golf fairways; (2) prospects for long term damage to the woods themselves due to the elimination of ground cover, the removal of saplings and erosion resulting from the projected 500 to 1000 visitors per week, and (3) the adequacy of our roads and access to Leddy Park to accommodate the projected number of visitors;
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Parks and Recreation Department be commended for its pro-active response to concerns expressed by citizens;
AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the Department of Parks and Recreation and its Commission report to the City Council a summary of the expert opinions requested before recommencing work on the Frisbee Golf Course.
lb/emb/c: Resolutions 2008/Leddy Park – Frisbee Golf Course Proposal
Go to
www.leddypark.org for updates.
Sep 18, 2008
MORE LEDDY DISC GOLF QUESTIONS
By Deborah Blom, Leonard St.
Wed, 17 September 2008
Dear Greg and Ron,
I have a few more questions to add re. the disc golf course.
Can BTown Disc Golf Club control who is playing on the course? If not, should we perhaps not accept their claims from authority ("we would never do something like that!")? Should we not question the relevancy of BTown Disc Golf Club's president's assertions such as (paraphrased) "We don't really ever drink while we golf or --we are lawyers and doctors-- but go somewhere else after the game." or "we all care about the environment"? I am not particularly concerned about drinking in the park and only give this as an example, but a glance at videos of disc golf on sites like YouTube or MySpace certainly show several people drinking while golfing (as does at least one of the articles below). This would indicate that those considering this course, need to get more generalized data rather than listening to what a small group of golfers, those who are motivated enough to frequently drive to Waterbury to play, have to say.
Additionally, several sites on the internet talk about how to safely design disc golf courses (see below) (e.g., don't place holes adjacent to or crossing trails). Has anyone contacted these folks for advice, especially regarding courses where injuries to non-players have apparently occurred (like Lenore Park)? Have you considered hiring a consultant as suggested by the Disc Golf Association (it should be noted that I have no idea what the qualifications are of the person who did design the course; perhaps he does have training)?
http://barryarnson.com/2008/05/09/more-gwinnett-county-disc-golf/
http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A262849
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20080812/NEWS/808120305
http://barryarnson.com/2008/05/09/more-gwinnett-county-disc-golf/
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1987/43899/teaching.html
http://www.discgolfassoc.com/discgolf-course-design/course-design-standards.html
http://www.pdga.com/cd_start.php
Finally, I understand the desire to add to the park's offerings. However, am I right in assuming that we don't want the current offerings to be compromised by the course? Is this being considered? For example, in addition to the safety concerns that have been brought up, folks walking the trails to the south of the tennis courts are usually looking for a sense of solitude and for a short respite from city life. The cutting that has occurred so far makes the homes surrounding the part much more visible and the additional cutting/trampling that will occur will increase this problem. Additional cutting on the other side of the trail, will make the traffic visible and allow more sound to penetrate. Add that to the presence of people talking/celebrating while playing golf and the chance of flying discs entering the path, and the solitude is lost. This is one of the few paths that I know of in the area that is relatively safe but secluded, and it would be a shame to lose it (N.B. to those who say that there are plenty of paths in Burlington: whether you are right or not, I ask you to remember that many folks in the New North End may not have cars or the means or time to ride the bus frequently for recreation).
I ask that you please add these to the list of questions/concerns.
Sincerely,
Deborah Blom
By Deborah Blom, Leonard St.
Wed, 17 September 2008
Dear Greg and Ron,
I have a few more questions to add re. the disc golf course.
Can BTown Disc Golf Club control who is playing on the course? If not, should we perhaps not accept their claims from authority ("we would never do something like that!")? Should we not question the relevancy of BTown Disc Golf Club's president's assertions such as (paraphrased) "We don't really ever drink while we golf or --we are lawyers and doctors-- but go somewhere else after the game." or "we all care about the environment"? I am not particularly concerned about drinking in the park and only give this as an example, but a glance at videos of disc golf on sites like YouTube or MySpace certainly show several people drinking while golfing (as does at least one of the articles below). This would indicate that those considering this course, need to get more generalized data rather than listening to what a small group of golfers, those who are motivated enough to frequently drive to Waterbury to play, have to say.
Additionally, several sites on the internet talk about how to safely design disc golf courses (see below) (e.g., don't place holes adjacent to or crossing trails). Has anyone contacted these folks for advice, especially regarding courses where injuries to non-players have apparently occurred (like Lenore Park)? Have you considered hiring a consultant as suggested by the Disc Golf Association (it should be noted that I have no idea what the qualifications are of the person who did design the course; perhaps he does have training)?
http://barryarnson.com/2008/05/09/more-gwinnett-county-disc-golf/
http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A262849
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20080812/NEWS/808120305
http://barryarnson.com/2008/05/09/more-gwinnett-county-disc-golf/
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1987/43899/teaching.html
http://www.discgolfassoc.com/discgolf-course-design/course-design-standards.html
http://www.pdga.com/cd_start.php
Finally, I understand the desire to add to the park's offerings. However, am I right in assuming that we don't want the current offerings to be compromised by the course? Is this being considered? For example, in addition to the safety concerns that have been brought up, folks walking the trails to the south of the tennis courts are usually looking for a sense of solitude and for a short respite from city life. The cutting that has occurred so far makes the homes surrounding the part much more visible and the additional cutting/trampling that will occur will increase this problem. Additional cutting on the other side of the trail, will make the traffic visible and allow more sound to penetrate. Add that to the presence of people talking/celebrating while playing golf and the chance of flying discs entering the path, and the solitude is lost. This is one of the few paths that I know of in the area that is relatively safe but secluded, and it would be a shame to lose it (N.B. to those who say that there are plenty of paths in Burlington: whether you are right or not, I ask you to remember that many folks in the New North End may not have cars or the means or time to ride the bus frequently for recreation).
I ask that you please add these to the list of questions/concerns.
Sincerely,
Deborah Blom
Sep 15, 2008
NPA Resolution Calling for Special Task Force
RESOLUTION
WARD FOUR AND SEVEN NPA OVERSIGHT ON LEDDY PARK DEVELOPMENT
Whereas the Burlington Parks and Recreation Department has allowed tree cutting by a private non-profit organization for the purposes of creating an 18 hole disk golf course with no prior public meeting;
Whereas the Parks and Recreation Commission allowed "preliminary approval" of such tree cutting without calling for a public meeting or requesting public comment;
Whereas the Director of Burlington Parks and Recreation admitted at a public meeting on September 3rd 2008 that he allowed the development of the disk golf course in Leddy Park without ever playing the game;
Whereas the Burlington City Ordinance § 3-203 states "... all public recreational activities hereafter sponsored by the city, shall be under the management, care and control of the city council..."
Whereas the Burlington City Ordinance § 3-207 states "...The city council shall have power to make and alter from time to time, all needful rules and regulations for the maintenance of order, safety, and decency in said parks and for said recreational program..."
Whereas the Burlington City Ordinance § 3-209 states "...No shade or ornamental trees growing in the streets and public grounds of said city, shall be destroyed or removed except by leave in writing, first obtained from the city council."
Whereas these ordinances were not followed during the decision process to construct a disk golf course in Leddy Park nor did any City officer or Councilor inform the Neighborhood Planning Assembly (NPA) of said proposed disk golf development; and
Whereas the Neighborhood Planning Assemblies were established by the City of Burlington to “help improve communication between the citizens of Burlington and City government”
Now therefore be it resolved that:
The Wards 4 and 7 NPA has lost confidence that City Officials will adequately represent our interests during discussions regarding the planning of Leddy Park,
and therefore the NPA hereby requests that the City Council, under its authority, appoint a special Task Force to investigate the impacts of a disk golf course in Leddy Park.
Be it further resolved that the Wards 4 and 7 NPA requests that this Task Force be made up of:
6 representatives from of the Ward 4 and 7 NPA (three from Ward 4 and three from Ward 7).
2 representatives from Burlington Parks and Recreation
2 representatives from the Btown Disk Golf Club
2 representatives from the Parks and Recreation Commission
2 City Councilors (one from Ward 4 and one from Ward 7)
The Task Force shall be charged with directing and otherwise being fully involved with an independent study conducted by a neutral third party that shall determine the environmental, social, recreational and fiscal impacts of a disk golf course in Leddy Park. The Task Force shall present the study’s findings to the public and the City Council. The City Council shall then determine if such a course is to be built. Until such time where the City Council will make this determination all work on the disk golf course in Leddy Park shall stop immediately.
WARD FOUR AND SEVEN NPA OVERSIGHT ON LEDDY PARK DEVELOPMENT
- Set aside, to be considered at a later date.
- Meeting Notes: " allow time for the Parks and Recreation Commission and Staff to advance the golf course development process without an additional layer of oversight. It was assumed that the best interests of the city and neighborhoods will be respected and protected by the existing system of oversight, i.e. the Parks and Recreation Commission and staff, City Council and Friends of Leddy Park organization." 9/18/08
Whereas the Burlington Parks and Recreation Department has allowed tree cutting by a private non-profit organization for the purposes of creating an 18 hole disk golf course with no prior public meeting;
Whereas the Parks and Recreation Commission allowed "preliminary approval" of such tree cutting without calling for a public meeting or requesting public comment;
Whereas the Director of Burlington Parks and Recreation admitted at a public meeting on September 3rd 2008 that he allowed the development of the disk golf course in Leddy Park without ever playing the game;
Whereas the Burlington City Ordinance § 3-203 states "... all public recreational activities hereafter sponsored by the city, shall be under the management, care and control of the city council..."
Whereas the Burlington City Ordinance § 3-207 states "...The city council shall have power to make and alter from time to time, all needful rules and regulations for the maintenance of order, safety, and decency in said parks and for said recreational program..."
Whereas the Burlington City Ordinance § 3-209 states "...No shade or ornamental trees growing in the streets and public grounds of said city, shall be destroyed or removed except by leave in writing, first obtained from the city council."
Whereas these ordinances were not followed during the decision process to construct a disk golf course in Leddy Park nor did any City officer or Councilor inform the Neighborhood Planning Assembly (NPA) of said proposed disk golf development; and
Whereas the Neighborhood Planning Assemblies were established by the City of Burlington to “help improve communication between the citizens of Burlington and City government”
Now therefore be it resolved that:
The Wards 4 and 7 NPA has lost confidence that City Officials will adequately represent our interests during discussions regarding the planning of Leddy Park,
and therefore the NPA hereby requests that the City Council, under its authority, appoint a special Task Force to investigate the impacts of a disk golf course in Leddy Park.
Be it further resolved that the Wards 4 and 7 NPA requests that this Task Force be made up of:
6 representatives from of the Ward 4 and 7 NPA (three from Ward 4 and three from Ward 7).
2 representatives from Burlington Parks and Recreation
2 representatives from the Btown Disk Golf Club
2 representatives from the Parks and Recreation Commission
2 City Councilors (one from Ward 4 and one from Ward 7)
The Task Force shall be charged with directing and otherwise being fully involved with an independent study conducted by a neutral third party that shall determine the environmental, social, recreational and fiscal impacts of a disk golf course in Leddy Park. The Task Force shall present the study’s findings to the public and the City Council. The City Council shall then determine if such a course is to be built. Until such time where the City Council will make this determination all work on the disk golf course in Leddy Park shall stop immediately.
Sep 13, 2008
Comments and Questions, Leddy Park disc golf course
.
A message from Wayne E. Gross, Director of Parks and Recreation, posted on Front Porch Forum: “The Department of Parks and Recreation, in conjunction with the BTown Disc Golf Club, is constructing a disc golf course in Leddy Park. The Department received a proposal from the Club that was reviewed by staff and approved by the Parks and Recreation Commission. Disc golf is a low impact activity that is similar to golf but involves throwing of disc "Frisbees" into metal baskets. The course layout is entirely within the wooded area of Leddy Park and will have minimal visibility from the active and developed areas of the park and there will be a buffer between the course and adjoining properties. I know that there has been some concern expressed about possible tree cutting to accommodate this project. I have been contacted by both Ward 4 City Councilors Kurt Wright and Russ Ellis about this concern. Please know that there will not be any tree cutting done. Only underbrush and tree saplings are being cut and this is being done under the supervision of City Arborist Warren Spinner. Disc Golf is a fun and popular activity that we think is appropriate for this location. This activity will also bring increased use to the wooded portions of the park and will discourage some inappropriate uses such as homeless encampments, illegal dumping, and vandalism that have taken place in this area in the past. For more information about the BTown Disc Golf Club and details of the project, please visit the Club website at http://www.btowndisc.com. I hope this information is helpful to everyones understanding of this project.” Wayne Gross.
Greg Jenkins, a member of the Ward 7 NPA Steering Committee, was outspoken on the project. He was asked to compile a list of residents concerns posted on Front Porch Forum and sent to him. Greg writes: “It was asked of me that I compile a list of questions/concerns, bothpositive, and negative in regards to disk golf at Leddy Park. I have cut and pasted all the emails I have received in regards to this issue. The bulk of what follows, are not my words, but the thoughts of our community.” Greg Jenkins
Each comment or question is tagged with a category that is the main point of the comment. The categories are:
· decision process
· taxpayer costs and maintenance
· competing uses in the park
· game of disc golf
· general, includes several categories
Decision Process: I agree with your priority. The "process" for approving this plan was terrible. This may be the "poster child" for Open Government in Burlington.
Decision Process: But these questions are all about how to use the course. I am still opposed to the course at all, because of the process used to get it started. There was no information to the public, no input was sought. Clear cutting was started before anyone even knew about the project.
Decision Process: Why was there no notification to the residents of Burlington, the current users of the Park and the adjoining property owners before this plan was approved?
Decision Process: Homeowners need to pay for zoning permits, building permits and post public notice prior to making property modifications. Why isn’t Parks and Rec. required to provide similar notice when there are significant changes to public spaces? What is the Process?_ The plan has been approved, construction started and now suspended. Will construction resume following this meeting, or5 will Parks and Rec. suspend its approval of this plan to allow for more public comment and more assessment of the impacts of this significant change in the use of the Park?
Decision Process: For me, it is not about the game, it's about* the process* the City followed, the lack of any public input, using a city commission to make a big change like that in our park. Leddy is a quiet sanctuary of trails and woods, for thousands of residents. Because we don't call it a game, and we don't compete with each other in that space, our use doesn't count for anything? I walk the Leddy trails almost every day, and I am incensed that city government takes it over for a sport that brings 1200 people a week to throw Frisbees around in the woods, or whatever they do. Leddy Park Rd is narrow and people park along it now, making it unsafe for bicyclists and people walking.
Now the city will turn the public discussion into pro and con disc golf, which is not the frame of the argument
Decision Process: Environmental Impact. Has Parks and Rec. had an independent environmental assessment done of the impacts of disc golf at Leddy Park? If Yes, will this assessment be made public before there is further construction? If no independent environmental assessment has been done, has Parks and Rec. evaluated the impact of this course in terms of:
1. Existing park activities and uses?
2. Increased traffic? (There may be enough parking for the possible 1,000 players per week, but can the access road and intersection at North Ave. support this increased traffic without negative impacts?
3. Impact on vegetation within and at the boundaries of the course? (There is a stand of wintergreen plants at the base of the proposed 10th “hole”. Will this vegetation and others be protected or subjected to the foot traffic of the course players? What will happen to vegetation when players leave the course to find mis-thrown and lost discs?)
4. Impact on wildlife in the park? (At least one pileated woodpecker nesting tree has already been cut down to make way for the course.)
5. Impact on shoreline. How will the fragile lakefront banks and steep ravine areas be protected from erosion due to players leaving the course to retrieve mis-thrown and lost discs?
6. Safety and Liability_Some of the course “fairways” cross and intersect with existing walking and bike paths and are quite close to adjoining properties. Has Parks and Rec. had an independent evaluation of the safety and liability aspects of this course? If there is damage to public or private-adjoining property, or personal injury to a player or someone on a walking or bike path, what is the City’s liability exposure? What recourse will adjoining property owners have if there are broken windows, damaged siding, etc. from mis-thrown discs?
7. Why Leddy Park?_Were other parks or City locations evaluated for disc golf? If Yes, why were these other locations eliminated? If other parks/locations were not evaluated, why not?
8. Supervision. Will there be any supervision of the course? Will there be any restrictions on the use of the course in terms of its use during the seasons of the year, time of day, weather, the number of people, the presence of alcohol and noise levels? If Yes, how will these restrictions be enforced?
9. Will they outline the course with string to show the defined "fairways"; however, a great number of the thrown discs will not remain within the outline of the fairways (ever need to play a golf ball from the "rough", search for a lost ball (discs cost $15-$25 so folks will be walking around outside the course-on vegetation, up and down fragile lakefront banks and steep ravines to retrieve mis-thrown discs)
Decision Process: I had to get a zoning permit just to put in replacement windows. This is what I found out about this Frisbee golf today. I left a message with Parks and Rec, which was returned mid-afternoon. I then called Planning and Zoning. No permits were applied for, nor issued. I faxed over a Zoning compliant form. When I spoke with Parks and Rec I was told that this group of people would just be cutting down brush and shrub (which become our future trees BTW) and it would have a minimal impact. When I informed him about the zoning issue and that I had filed a report, I was told that work had been stopped and that a meeting was being scheduled to determine if a permit was needed. Now it gets to the good part, I just got back from Leddy Park, my definition of a shrub is not a tree that is as thick as my forearm. They have started to cut a 30' wide opening through one of our few remaining woodlands. Imagine 18 of these paths of dirt, and what they will look like after a few years when all the grass is worn down. The people need to decide what is done with our public spaces. Show me the full plan of what is going to be done, how it will be used, and its impact on the area, and then, maybe, I could support this.
Decision Process: Is there a documented process that Parks and Rec must go through when making improvements to facilities or taking on new sports / etc? Consulting neighborhoods? Putting it up for a vote? Does the city have a plan in place for this? I'm not sure what jurisdiction this falls under - permitting / zoning / etc.? The park is city property, no?
Decision Process: I've been down through Leddy when softball is in full swing – the amount of auto traffic and parking in the woods is a joke - and think about the trees that were already gone because we want to smack a ball around... this was my point - we need to be supportive of uses in our neighborhoods - but how can we judge what uses are 'right' and what are wrong. If the softballers get a place to play, so should the disc golfers... and I agree that if there is a process that was not followed - there should be a pause and a review. If there is not a process, then this should move forward under the conditions with which it started - and the NPA should work with the city to develop a process for the development of city land / parks / with neighborhood input.
Decision Process: Regarding the disc golf project: a lot more trees could be down by Sept 4th. The photos show a path of devastation throughout the ENTIRE park! I suggest obtaining a temporary injunction.
Decision Process: Are you aware that there is an 18 hole disk golf course being built in Leddy Park? Friday when I was walking in the park I saw two members of the disc golf club cutting trees down to make the first couple of holes. This cutting has started on the south side of the park. Please take a look at http://www.btowndisc.com website. There is a map of the whole layout where trees will be cut and course lay out. When I went to the Burlington Parks and Recreation Web site there is no information about this development. I would like to get community members talking about this. My concern is that no information was posted. All decisions have been put into place and the group has the go ahead from the parks and rec to develop all this wild land. Please talk to your neighbors and inform all park users of this big development. Please contact Parks and Rec and your city council members to discuss what is being done.
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: I do have another question that you may want to discuss a bit during the meeting. If parking becomes an issue up in the free area, will the city require parks and rec parking stickers in order to park in the bigger lot down by the hockey rink? I assume so, and guess this may result in some small revenue associated with the course. As to your comment about where do people go to the bathroom, I noticed there are restrooms up by the soccer fields/tennis courts and I believe the restrooms in the hockey rink are open to the public. I imagine it
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: Will any Parks and Rec. staff time be used on this project? To organize use, or clean up the woods? I ask this because I have talked to Parks and Rec. in the past about having a staff person at Leddy Beach. they told me they did not have the time or staff to have anyone down there at any time. I would not support using Parks and Rec. staff time for the disc golf, if we cannot even have a person overseeing use of the beach. First things first.
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: Who is paying for this? Who will maintain it? Who is carrying the insurance if someone gets hurt? How much are they paying to use the space? Is this a Park and Rec sponsored program? What are the agreements about the hours of use? Is drinking allowed in the park? What about parking?
Competing Uses: Will the leash law be in effect and enforced on the disc golf course? It in not now enforced at Leddy Park or the beach, and I see this type of activity maybe adding to an already significant problem of unleashed dogs in the park.
Competing Uses: What is the current use of this area of the park?
Will the new use conflict with current use? How much space will the disc golf course cover?
Competing Uses: Leddy park disc golf will be a serious impact to current park users/adjoiners.
Competing Uses: I had the privilege of talking with
someone who plays this sport. We met at Leddy Park Sat AM. I got to throw one of these "Frisbees", and let me tell you I can see why this group wants to build a course, its FUN. There is a but however, as in Golf when you tee up, you use your biggest club and smack that ball as far as you can, same with disk golf. Your "driver" is kind of heavy and the edges are kind of sharp, you would not want catch it. So picture this, you stand at a tee and throw it as hard and far as you can... but your aim is off, and it goes off course right into the head off some one who was out walking the dog or... I have many more buts,
but will spare you! This is a mixed use park, I don't want to have to worry about this when I'm out walking.
Competing Uses: Howdy Neighbor, FORE! 18 holes of Leddy Park disc golf sounds like trouble and overkill to me. I am a disc golfer myself and would love to have a nearby course. What happened to the Intervale idea? But 18 holes in a multi-use park? One of those uses already being the quiet solitude trail walking/running in the urban forest itself? 18 holes of disc golf on flat wooded terrain (BORING terrain for disc golf to begin with) in multi-use Leddy Park will have a serious impact on adjoiners and current Park users. Most users like a course with more dramatic terrain and interesting holes. Say goodbye to walking in the woods unless you have a good orthodontist and eye goggles. Trust me. You don't want to be hit by one of these projectiles. This use should be seriously studied before it is permitted. Large lanes of forest will need to be cleared for the holes. Walkers will have to dodge the heavy disc projectiles fired off the tees. It will kill a walk in the undisturbed woods for people. If you're biking with any speed and get hit by one of these discs flying from the woods you will not forget it. The weighted disks are made to fly long distances often times a lot longer than the thrower intends. Whoops, is a favored disc golf expression. These are not lightweight Frisbees casually tossed. Usually, most holes require at least two strong throws to reach the
basket. And courses are in out of the way locations. Re. the google map: Neighborhood adjoiners may have players searching for their disks in their backyards let alone siding dents and broken windows. Plus, they change the environment considerably with lots of whoops, hollers,
and FORE!(S) going on by the players. Maybe they can pull off nine holes with minimum current park/use impact but I don't know. Also, usually some fair degree of partying is associated with this sport.
Given the obesity epidemic and the fact that there is a need, how about a much lower impact community built/private donor sponsored fitness trail instead, rather than a beer guzzling disc golf course on some of
Burlington's last urban forest? C'mon guys! In fact, I am here and now proposing a low impact fitness trail thru that property as a viable low impact alternative to this frisbee course and will be contacting city council, park and rec, et al. I think there is a need and that it is a much healthier low impact use for that land and the city should put it to a vote! Let me know if you want to help! Otherwise, get ready to
duck and cover.
Competing Uses: What is one person's nature preserve is another's disc golf course, homeless camp, moutain bike ride, etc. etc. And, its not that your post sounded political - its just that its almost a joke that we get upset about development or removal of trees / wetlands / etc.... yet we don't do anything about our current uses and abuses that cause daily damage to our lungs, lives, land, etc.
Game: How many people are actually going to play? What are the numbers of Burlington residents interested in playing? Personally, I do not see that many people interested in disc golf. Seems like a small number to me.
Game: Who determines who starts in when? Kind of like tee off time in golf.
Game: Will be similar to most golf courses.
Game: Have played in Michigan a few times and it is fun......sort of like a cross between croquet and golf. Perhaps if the Steering Committee would go out a play around members could get more a feel of what he game is all about?
Game: Waterbury has a course and covers 10 acres; How much space will this cover?
Game: What are the game rules? How many people play at a time? Where do we sign up?
General: Regarding the comment about peeing in the woods, I understand what you are saying, but aren't the homeless guys living in there now doing that same thing? I think that's one of the hidden upsides to this proposal. As a runner in this town you see more than a couple permanent tent sites in the woods just off the bike paths.
General: I grew up in Vermont playing sports, I still do outside rec. I truly do not know the answers to your question of are the brakes on permanently. Because there are still so many questions remaining I feel that anyone who can make a yea/nay, suspect. Someone brought up Starr Farm Road as a possible area. Any thoughts on that? One thing that I can't help but wonder, is if most people can throw a disk 200 plus yards, wouldn't you want a place where you could have a couple of nice long par 5 holes? Some water hazards? Dunno...
General: I learned of disc golf and the planned disc golf course at Leddy Park like many other folks, from the Front Porch Forum posting by Nancy Powers, after work was under way. I was concerned and read the brochure (which gives the impression that the whole park is being taken over), researched the sport online, took four walks on various trails through the park to seek out the course, attended the meeting last Wednesday, and chatted with club members beforehand to find out who they were. I encourage everyone to withhold judgment until all the facts are clear, and to please assume that everyone's opinions, pro and con, are presented with the best of intentions. The disc golf folks I met were a very responsible and "respectable" group. They weren't trying to sneak anything by the public, Parks & Rec wasn't trying to be secretive, and in fact the disc golf folks DID follow the process: they submitted a proposal, met with the P&R Commission and received approval. (And frankly, if we had a newspaper that actually assigned staff to cover city meetings, we would have known about this a long time ago.) Please, let's not make this an "us vs. them" or "not in my backyard" issue. The parks are for all of us, and all points of view deserve respect and consideration. That means finding out the facts and taking the time to LISTEN to those who have a different perspective. Alarmist views on either side of this issue -- and the hostile, "shout-'em-down statements made by several folks at that meeting, are a disservice to all of us.
General: Are development or use permits necessary? Do they have them? Have they looked at other locations? Why can't they use another park like Starr Farm and use portable holes and reserve it for specific times?
General: We in Burlington love our parks and our trees, but we have to acknowledge that thinning (if it indeed is thinning) is GOOD for a forest. At the same time, those whose properties abut the course and those who regularly walk the trails rightly have concerns that need to be addressed. Meanwhile, I am reminded of the fight that preceded our beautiful bike path, the Waterfront boathouse and related changes. These very positive developments never would have happened if people hadn't let go of their fears and been open to change.
General: Keep a natural area, natural.
General: I have mixed feelings regarding the project here - the course could help get more folks outside & using the park, which is always a good thing; however, there are very few undeveloped woods remaining in the NNE. And I'm definitely concerned that the park could be altered so drastically without getting
General: Thanks for sending along the links to the group's website & proposed course (it really does cover the entire park!).
General: Wow !! I took a look at the planned site. It covers almost all of the park. Check out the plan at http://www.btowndisc.com. Gone are the chances to have a quiet walk in the park. This course will cover all the area from the tennis courts and the road to the lake and all around the skating rink and up to the softball diamonds. I am wondering about the parking when the lots are full during Park and Rec Soccer season. I am also amazed that the city thought they could do this without talking to the residents. Who is going to maintain this? I thought we are having financial problems? Lots of questions and so far no answers
General: I am a resident of Lakewood Estates in Burlington and regularly walk in Leddy park. I am writing to express my grave concerns about the impending installation of an 18-hole Disc Golf course in the park. Over the past several weeks I have had numerous conversations and attended several meetings on this subject, including the September 3 informational meeting in Leddy Arena. Those meetings have served to intensify my opposition to this project. Most of the reasons for that opposition were raised at the meeting in Leddy Arena. I would like to reinforce a few of them and elaborate on one of them.
1. Environmental impact: The potential for soil erosion and both short- and long-term damage to wildlife, vegetation, the forest and seasonal wetlands appears to be great but has not yet been adequately assessed.
2. Beauty: I fear that, in addition to trampling vegetation, adding 18 baskets with bright yellow rims to the scenery in Leddy Park will diminish its contribution to Burlington's reputation as one of this country's most beautiful and livable cities.
3. Safety: It has not been made clear how 25 foot "buffers" will protect nearby residents and passersby from a hard disk, capable of traveling 500 feet - particularly when the disks are being hurled by the unsupervised novices who will undoubtedly be attracted to the sport.
4. Traffic: Estimates as to the number of people whom the sport will draw to Leddy Park have been as high as 1000 per week. The parking lot may be able to accommodate the cars, but can the park sustain that kind of use without long-term damage?
5. Planning: What is the long range strategy for Leddy Park? In the absence of a master plan, there is no agreed-upon yardstick against which to measure the appropriateness of a particular recreational proposal. We risk ending up with a park that includes a hodgepodge of ill-conceived and poorly-executed projects.
6. Process: My biggest objection is the process that was employed in making the decision to proceed with this project. It is inconceivable to me how the Commission could have given "conceptual approval" for such a drastic change to one of our parks without notifying and involving the public in advance. The sound of trees being cut was the first we heard about Disc Golf in Leddy Park. As one citizen in the September 3 meeting asked: "How can a private entity make its way into a public park without public input?" You may think me naive, but I believe that our city's parks belong to us, the taxpayers and users. As public servants, you are entrusted with the responsibility for acting on our behalf to manage and protect our parks. In the case of Disc Golf, the lack of public notification - let alone opportunity for public comment - feels to me like a betrayal of the trust we have placed in you.
What is needed now is what should have happened in the first place: an independent and objective assessment which includes a realistic estimate of the number of people that the golf course is likely to attract and its impacts on the environment in Leddy Park and on the safety of nearby residents and park users. I am requesting that the project be stopped indefinitely until such an assessment has been completed and the results have been made public. Then, based on the results of the assessment, a determination can be made as to whether installing a disc golf course in Leddy Park is in the best interests of the city and its citizens.
Other Initiatives: To endorse an NPA resolution, attend the meeting on Thursday September 18, 6:45 pm, Heineberg Club. To sign a petition, contact Ron McGarvey, RMCGAR864@aol.com or make a copy of the petition below:
PETITION
Environmental Assessment before Disc Golf at Leddy Park
We, the undersigned residents of Burlington, VT, are petitioning the Parks and Recreation Department and Commission to conduct an independent assessment of the issues below before proceeding with development of a disc golf course at Leddy Park. We feel that such an assessment should include:
1. The impacts of development in this urban forest on wildlife, vegetation and soil erosion.
2. Impact on the safety of current park users.
3. The impacts of significantly increased traffic due to this course, and
4. On-going maintenance costs to the City.
To ensure that Leddy Park continues to be a valuable recreation area for all Burlington residents, we also encourage the Parks and Recreation Department and Commission to develop, with citizen input and assistance, a Master Plan to guide the use, maintenance and future development of the Park.
PRINT Name SIGNATURE ADDRESS
Bring petition, with signatures, to the NPA meeting on Thursday, Sept. 18, 6:45 pm, Heineberg Center.
A message from Wayne E. Gross, Director of Parks and Recreation, posted on Front Porch Forum: “The Department of Parks and Recreation, in conjunction with the BTown Disc Golf Club, is constructing a disc golf course in Leddy Park. The Department received a proposal from the Club that was reviewed by staff and approved by the Parks and Recreation Commission. Disc golf is a low impact activity that is similar to golf but involves throwing of disc "Frisbees" into metal baskets. The course layout is entirely within the wooded area of Leddy Park and will have minimal visibility from the active and developed areas of the park and there will be a buffer between the course and adjoining properties. I know that there has been some concern expressed about possible tree cutting to accommodate this project. I have been contacted by both Ward 4 City Councilors Kurt Wright and Russ Ellis about this concern. Please know that there will not be any tree cutting done. Only underbrush and tree saplings are being cut and this is being done under the supervision of City Arborist Warren Spinner. Disc Golf is a fun and popular activity that we think is appropriate for this location. This activity will also bring increased use to the wooded portions of the park and will discourage some inappropriate uses such as homeless encampments, illegal dumping, and vandalism that have taken place in this area in the past. For more information about the BTown Disc Golf Club and details of the project, please visit the Club website at http://www.btowndisc.com. I hope this information is helpful to everyones understanding of this project.” Wayne Gross.
Greg Jenkins, a member of the Ward 7 NPA Steering Committee, was outspoken on the project. He was asked to compile a list of residents concerns posted on Front Porch Forum and sent to him. Greg writes: “It was asked of me that I compile a list of questions/concerns, bothpositive, and negative in regards to disk golf at Leddy Park. I have cut and pasted all the emails I have received in regards to this issue. The bulk of what follows, are not my words, but the thoughts of our community.” Greg Jenkins
Each comment or question is tagged with a category that is the main point of the comment. The categories are:
· decision process
· taxpayer costs and maintenance
· competing uses in the park
· game of disc golf
· general, includes several categories
Decision Process: I agree with your priority. The "process" for approving this plan was terrible. This may be the "poster child" for Open Government in Burlington.
Decision Process: But these questions are all about how to use the course. I am still opposed to the course at all, because of the process used to get it started. There was no information to the public, no input was sought. Clear cutting was started before anyone even knew about the project.
Decision Process: Why was there no notification to the residents of Burlington, the current users of the Park and the adjoining property owners before this plan was approved?
Decision Process: Homeowners need to pay for zoning permits, building permits and post public notice prior to making property modifications. Why isn’t Parks and Rec. required to provide similar notice when there are significant changes to public spaces? What is the Process?_ The plan has been approved, construction started and now suspended. Will construction resume following this meeting, or5 will Parks and Rec. suspend its approval of this plan to allow for more public comment and more assessment of the impacts of this significant change in the use of the Park?
Decision Process: For me, it is not about the game, it's about* the process* the City followed, the lack of any public input, using a city commission to make a big change like that in our park. Leddy is a quiet sanctuary of trails and woods, for thousands of residents. Because we don't call it a game, and we don't compete with each other in that space, our use doesn't count for anything? I walk the Leddy trails almost every day, and I am incensed that city government takes it over for a sport that brings 1200 people a week to throw Frisbees around in the woods, or whatever they do. Leddy Park Rd is narrow and people park along it now, making it unsafe for bicyclists and people walking.
Now the city will turn the public discussion into pro and con disc golf, which is not the frame of the argument
Decision Process: Environmental Impact. Has Parks and Rec. had an independent environmental assessment done of the impacts of disc golf at Leddy Park? If Yes, will this assessment be made public before there is further construction? If no independent environmental assessment has been done, has Parks and Rec. evaluated the impact of this course in terms of:
1. Existing park activities and uses?
2. Increased traffic? (There may be enough parking for the possible 1,000 players per week, but can the access road and intersection at North Ave. support this increased traffic without negative impacts?
3. Impact on vegetation within and at the boundaries of the course? (There is a stand of wintergreen plants at the base of the proposed 10th “hole”. Will this vegetation and others be protected or subjected to the foot traffic of the course players? What will happen to vegetation when players leave the course to find mis-thrown and lost discs?)
4. Impact on wildlife in the park? (At least one pileated woodpecker nesting tree has already been cut down to make way for the course.)
5. Impact on shoreline. How will the fragile lakefront banks and steep ravine areas be protected from erosion due to players leaving the course to retrieve mis-thrown and lost discs?
6. Safety and Liability_Some of the course “fairways” cross and intersect with existing walking and bike paths and are quite close to adjoining properties. Has Parks and Rec. had an independent evaluation of the safety and liability aspects of this course? If there is damage to public or private-adjoining property, or personal injury to a player or someone on a walking or bike path, what is the City’s liability exposure? What recourse will adjoining property owners have if there are broken windows, damaged siding, etc. from mis-thrown discs?
7. Why Leddy Park?_Were other parks or City locations evaluated for disc golf? If Yes, why were these other locations eliminated? If other parks/locations were not evaluated, why not?
8. Supervision. Will there be any supervision of the course? Will there be any restrictions on the use of the course in terms of its use during the seasons of the year, time of day, weather, the number of people, the presence of alcohol and noise levels? If Yes, how will these restrictions be enforced?
9. Will they outline the course with string to show the defined "fairways"; however, a great number of the thrown discs will not remain within the outline of the fairways (ever need to play a golf ball from the "rough", search for a lost ball (discs cost $15-$25 so folks will be walking around outside the course-on vegetation, up and down fragile lakefront banks and steep ravines to retrieve mis-thrown discs)
Decision Process: I had to get a zoning permit just to put in replacement windows. This is what I found out about this Frisbee golf today. I left a message with Parks and Rec, which was returned mid-afternoon. I then called Planning and Zoning. No permits were applied for, nor issued. I faxed over a Zoning compliant form. When I spoke with Parks and Rec I was told that this group of people would just be cutting down brush and shrub (which become our future trees BTW) and it would have a minimal impact. When I informed him about the zoning issue and that I had filed a report, I was told that work had been stopped and that a meeting was being scheduled to determine if a permit was needed. Now it gets to the good part, I just got back from Leddy Park, my definition of a shrub is not a tree that is as thick as my forearm. They have started to cut a 30' wide opening through one of our few remaining woodlands. Imagine 18 of these paths of dirt, and what they will look like after a few years when all the grass is worn down. The people need to decide what is done with our public spaces. Show me the full plan of what is going to be done, how it will be used, and its impact on the area, and then, maybe, I could support this.
Decision Process: Is there a documented process that Parks and Rec must go through when making improvements to facilities or taking on new sports / etc? Consulting neighborhoods? Putting it up for a vote? Does the city have a plan in place for this? I'm not sure what jurisdiction this falls under - permitting / zoning / etc.? The park is city property, no?
Decision Process: I've been down through Leddy when softball is in full swing – the amount of auto traffic and parking in the woods is a joke - and think about the trees that were already gone because we want to smack a ball around... this was my point - we need to be supportive of uses in our neighborhoods - but how can we judge what uses are 'right' and what are wrong. If the softballers get a place to play, so should the disc golfers... and I agree that if there is a process that was not followed - there should be a pause and a review. If there is not a process, then this should move forward under the conditions with which it started - and the NPA should work with the city to develop a process for the development of city land / parks / with neighborhood input.
Decision Process: Regarding the disc golf project: a lot more trees could be down by Sept 4th. The photos show a path of devastation throughout the ENTIRE park! I suggest obtaining a temporary injunction.
Decision Process: Are you aware that there is an 18 hole disk golf course being built in Leddy Park? Friday when I was walking in the park I saw two members of the disc golf club cutting trees down to make the first couple of holes. This cutting has started on the south side of the park. Please take a look at http://www.btowndisc.com website. There is a map of the whole layout where trees will be cut and course lay out. When I went to the Burlington Parks and Recreation Web site there is no information about this development. I would like to get community members talking about this. My concern is that no information was posted. All decisions have been put into place and the group has the go ahead from the parks and rec to develop all this wild land. Please talk to your neighbors and inform all park users of this big development. Please contact Parks and Rec and your city council members to discuss what is being done.
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: I do have another question that you may want to discuss a bit during the meeting. If parking becomes an issue up in the free area, will the city require parks and rec parking stickers in order to park in the bigger lot down by the hockey rink? I assume so, and guess this may result in some small revenue associated with the course. As to your comment about where do people go to the bathroom, I noticed there are restrooms up by the soccer fields/tennis courts and I believe the restrooms in the hockey rink are open to the public. I imagine it
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: Will any Parks and Rec. staff time be used on this project? To organize use, or clean up the woods? I ask this because I have talked to Parks and Rec. in the past about having a staff person at Leddy Beach. they told me they did not have the time or staff to have anyone down there at any time. I would not support using Parks and Rec. staff time for the disc golf, if we cannot even have a person overseeing use of the beach. First things first.
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: Who is paying for this? Who will maintain it? Who is carrying the insurance if someone gets hurt? How much are they paying to use the space? Is this a Park and Rec sponsored program? What are the agreements about the hours of use? Is drinking allowed in the park? What about parking?
Competing Uses: Will the leash law be in effect and enforced on the disc golf course? It in not now enforced at Leddy Park or the beach, and I see this type of activity maybe adding to an already significant problem of unleashed dogs in the park.
Competing Uses: What is the current use of this area of the park?
Will the new use conflict with current use? How much space will the disc golf course cover?
Competing Uses: Leddy park disc golf will be a serious impact to current park users/adjoiners.
Competing Uses: I had the privilege of talking with
someone who plays this sport. We met at Leddy Park Sat AM. I got to throw one of these "Frisbees", and let me tell you I can see why this group wants to build a course, its FUN. There is a but however, as in Golf when you tee up, you use your biggest club and smack that ball as far as you can, same with disk golf. Your "driver" is kind of heavy and the edges are kind of sharp, you would not want catch it. So picture this, you stand at a tee and throw it as hard and far as you can... but your aim is off, and it goes off course right into the head off some one who was out walking the dog or... I have many more buts,
but will spare you! This is a mixed use park, I don't want to have to worry about this when I'm out walking.
Competing Uses: Howdy Neighbor, FORE! 18 holes of Leddy Park disc golf sounds like trouble and overkill to me. I am a disc golfer myself and would love to have a nearby course. What happened to the Intervale idea? But 18 holes in a multi-use park? One of those uses already being the quiet solitude trail walking/running in the urban forest itself? 18 holes of disc golf on flat wooded terrain (BORING terrain for disc golf to begin with) in multi-use Leddy Park will have a serious impact on adjoiners and current Park users. Most users like a course with more dramatic terrain and interesting holes. Say goodbye to walking in the woods unless you have a good orthodontist and eye goggles. Trust me. You don't want to be hit by one of these projectiles. This use should be seriously studied before it is permitted. Large lanes of forest will need to be cleared for the holes. Walkers will have to dodge the heavy disc projectiles fired off the tees. It will kill a walk in the undisturbed woods for people. If you're biking with any speed and get hit by one of these discs flying from the woods you will not forget it. The weighted disks are made to fly long distances often times a lot longer than the thrower intends. Whoops, is a favored disc golf expression. These are not lightweight Frisbees casually tossed. Usually, most holes require at least two strong throws to reach the
basket. And courses are in out of the way locations. Re. the google map: Neighborhood adjoiners may have players searching for their disks in their backyards let alone siding dents and broken windows. Plus, they change the environment considerably with lots of whoops, hollers,
and FORE!(S) going on by the players. Maybe they can pull off nine holes with minimum current park/use impact but I don't know. Also, usually some fair degree of partying is associated with this sport.
Given the obesity epidemic and the fact that there is a need, how about a much lower impact community built/private donor sponsored fitness trail instead, rather than a beer guzzling disc golf course on some of
Burlington's last urban forest? C'mon guys! In fact, I am here and now proposing a low impact fitness trail thru that property as a viable low impact alternative to this frisbee course and will be contacting city council, park and rec, et al. I think there is a need and that it is a much healthier low impact use for that land and the city should put it to a vote! Let me know if you want to help! Otherwise, get ready to
duck and cover.
Competing Uses: What is one person's nature preserve is another's disc golf course, homeless camp, moutain bike ride, etc. etc. And, its not that your post sounded political - its just that its almost a joke that we get upset about development or removal of trees / wetlands / etc.... yet we don't do anything about our current uses and abuses that cause daily damage to our lungs, lives, land, etc.
Game: How many people are actually going to play? What are the numbers of Burlington residents interested in playing? Personally, I do not see that many people interested in disc golf. Seems like a small number to me.
Game: Who determines who starts in when? Kind of like tee off time in golf.
Game: Will be similar to most golf courses.
Game: Have played in Michigan a few times and it is fun......sort of like a cross between croquet and golf. Perhaps if the Steering Committee would go out a play around members could get more a feel of what he game is all about?
Game: Waterbury has a course and covers 10 acres; How much space will this cover?
Game: What are the game rules? How many people play at a time? Where do we sign up?
General: Regarding the comment about peeing in the woods, I understand what you are saying, but aren't the homeless guys living in there now doing that same thing? I think that's one of the hidden upsides to this proposal. As a runner in this town you see more than a couple permanent tent sites in the woods just off the bike paths.
General: I grew up in Vermont playing sports, I still do outside rec. I truly do not know the answers to your question of are the brakes on permanently. Because there are still so many questions remaining I feel that anyone who can make a yea/nay, suspect. Someone brought up Starr Farm Road as a possible area. Any thoughts on that? One thing that I can't help but wonder, is if most people can throw a disk 200 plus yards, wouldn't you want a place where you could have a couple of nice long par 5 holes? Some water hazards? Dunno...
General: I learned of disc golf and the planned disc golf course at Leddy Park like many other folks, from the Front Porch Forum posting by Nancy Powers, after work was under way. I was concerned and read the brochure (which gives the impression that the whole park is being taken over), researched the sport online, took four walks on various trails through the park to seek out the course, attended the meeting last Wednesday, and chatted with club members beforehand to find out who they were. I encourage everyone to withhold judgment until all the facts are clear, and to please assume that everyone's opinions, pro and con, are presented with the best of intentions. The disc golf folks I met were a very responsible and "respectable" group. They weren't trying to sneak anything by the public, Parks & Rec wasn't trying to be secretive, and in fact the disc golf folks DID follow the process: they submitted a proposal, met with the P&R Commission and received approval. (And frankly, if we had a newspaper that actually assigned staff to cover city meetings, we would have known about this a long time ago.) Please, let's not make this an "us vs. them" or "not in my backyard" issue. The parks are for all of us, and all points of view deserve respect and consideration. That means finding out the facts and taking the time to LISTEN to those who have a different perspective. Alarmist views on either side of this issue -- and the hostile, "shout-'em-down statements made by several folks at that meeting, are a disservice to all of us.
General: Are development or use permits necessary? Do they have them? Have they looked at other locations? Why can't they use another park like Starr Farm and use portable holes and reserve it for specific times?
General: We in Burlington love our parks and our trees, but we have to acknowledge that thinning (if it indeed is thinning) is GOOD for a forest. At the same time, those whose properties abut the course and those who regularly walk the trails rightly have concerns that need to be addressed. Meanwhile, I am reminded of the fight that preceded our beautiful bike path, the Waterfront boathouse and related changes. These very positive developments never would have happened if people hadn't let go of their fears and been open to change.
General: Keep a natural area, natural.
General: I have mixed feelings regarding the project here - the course could help get more folks outside & using the park, which is always a good thing; however, there are very few undeveloped woods remaining in the NNE. And I'm definitely concerned that the park could be altered so drastically without getting
General: Thanks for sending along the links to the group's website & proposed course (it really does cover the entire park!).
General: Wow !! I took a look at the planned site. It covers almost all of the park. Check out the plan at http://www.btowndisc.com. Gone are the chances to have a quiet walk in the park. This course will cover all the area from the tennis courts and the road to the lake and all around the skating rink and up to the softball diamonds. I am wondering about the parking when the lots are full during Park and Rec Soccer season. I am also amazed that the city thought they could do this without talking to the residents. Who is going to maintain this? I thought we are having financial problems? Lots of questions and so far no answers
General: I am a resident of Lakewood Estates in Burlington and regularly walk in Leddy park. I am writing to express my grave concerns about the impending installation of an 18-hole Disc Golf course in the park. Over the past several weeks I have had numerous conversations and attended several meetings on this subject, including the September 3 informational meeting in Leddy Arena. Those meetings have served to intensify my opposition to this project. Most of the reasons for that opposition were raised at the meeting in Leddy Arena. I would like to reinforce a few of them and elaborate on one of them.
1. Environmental impact: The potential for soil erosion and both short- and long-term damage to wildlife, vegetation, the forest and seasonal wetlands appears to be great but has not yet been adequately assessed.
2. Beauty: I fear that, in addition to trampling vegetation, adding 18 baskets with bright yellow rims to the scenery in Leddy Park will diminish its contribution to Burlington's reputation as one of this country's most beautiful and livable cities.
3. Safety: It has not been made clear how 25 foot "buffers" will protect nearby residents and passersby from a hard disk, capable of traveling 500 feet - particularly when the disks are being hurled by the unsupervised novices who will undoubtedly be attracted to the sport.
4. Traffic: Estimates as to the number of people whom the sport will draw to Leddy Park have been as high as 1000 per week. The parking lot may be able to accommodate the cars, but can the park sustain that kind of use without long-term damage?
5. Planning: What is the long range strategy for Leddy Park? In the absence of a master plan, there is no agreed-upon yardstick against which to measure the appropriateness of a particular recreational proposal. We risk ending up with a park that includes a hodgepodge of ill-conceived and poorly-executed projects.
6. Process: My biggest objection is the process that was employed in making the decision to proceed with this project. It is inconceivable to me how the Commission could have given "conceptual approval" for such a drastic change to one of our parks without notifying and involving the public in advance. The sound of trees being cut was the first we heard about Disc Golf in Leddy Park. As one citizen in the September 3 meeting asked: "How can a private entity make its way into a public park without public input?" You may think me naive, but I believe that our city's parks belong to us, the taxpayers and users. As public servants, you are entrusted with the responsibility for acting on our behalf to manage and protect our parks. In the case of Disc Golf, the lack of public notification - let alone opportunity for public comment - feels to me like a betrayal of the trust we have placed in you.
What is needed now is what should have happened in the first place: an independent and objective assessment which includes a realistic estimate of the number of people that the golf course is likely to attract and its impacts on the environment in Leddy Park and on the safety of nearby residents and park users. I am requesting that the project be stopped indefinitely until such an assessment has been completed and the results have been made public. Then, based on the results of the assessment, a determination can be made as to whether installing a disc golf course in Leddy Park is in the best interests of the city and its citizens.
Other Initiatives: To endorse an NPA resolution, attend the meeting on Thursday September 18, 6:45 pm, Heineberg Club. To sign a petition, contact Ron McGarvey, RMCGAR864@aol.com or make a copy of the petition below:
PETITION
Environmental Assessment before Disc Golf at Leddy Park
We, the undersigned residents of Burlington, VT, are petitioning the Parks and Recreation Department and Commission to conduct an independent assessment of the issues below before proceeding with development of a disc golf course at Leddy Park. We feel that such an assessment should include:
1. The impacts of development in this urban forest on wildlife, vegetation and soil erosion.
2. Impact on the safety of current park users.
3. The impacts of significantly increased traffic due to this course, and
4. On-going maintenance costs to the City.
To ensure that Leddy Park continues to be a valuable recreation area for all Burlington residents, we also encourage the Parks and Recreation Department and Commission to develop, with citizen input and assistance, a Master Plan to guide the use, maintenance and future development of the Park.
PRINT Name SIGNATURE ADDRESS
Bring petition, with signatures, to the NPA meeting on Thursday, Sept. 18, 6:45 pm, Heineberg Center.
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