Apr 29, 2009

Parks Commission meeting started late because they didn't have a quorum. 100 people waited for 3 members who arrived 35-45 minutes late.

The first item of business was a charter boat owner who had a creative proposal for paying his dock use fees to the city. He asked the Parks Commission to approve the concept of his proposal, and he'd work out the details with Wayne Gross later. We groaned! That is exactly how we got disc golf fairways cut in Leddy Park! Approval of Concept?..... OBJECTION!

Joy McGarvey reads from comments by Sue Morse, noted forester and founder of Keeping Track. Sue confirmed that Leddy woods is part of a wildlife corridor that provides essential connectivity between Rock Point, Leddy Park, Appletree Point and the Intervale.

33 residents spoke in favor of Leddy Park woodlands preservation, and against disc golf in what is a mixed use park. Leddy Park is zoned RCO/RG (Recreation, Conservation, Open-Space, Recreation/Greenspace). People understand that to mean open space and woodland trails are to be protected; they say that wall-to-wall sports fields were never intended to fill Leddy Park. Many people testified that locating a disc golf course near walking trails is not safe!

17 people spoke in favor of constructing a disc golf course in Leddy Park. Everyone spoke generally favorably regarding the sport itself, and opponents urged the city to find an appropriate location for B'Town to play disc golf.

During the public comment period, Dr. Charles Seleen addressed commissioners regarding the Master Plan. He said "Leddy Parks already has a de facto Master Plan. It is a mixed use park. On the periphery there are sports playing fields for soccer, tennis, handball, lacrosse, and softball. There is a skating rink. In the interior there is a protected natural open space area comprised of an urban forest, walking trails and animal migration routes. This has been established for many years. The change to disk golf removes any 'mixed use' in the interior and destroys fragile open space that is shrinking in Burlington. Disk golf will discourage mixed uses. The golf course area will be a DEDICATED use--disk golf."

The outcome of the meeting was that Wayne Gross will make a recommendation to the Parks Commission for discussion at their May 19th meeting, and the Commission will forward a recommendation to City Council for a final decision.


Apr 28, 2009

We walk in the Woods. Protect Leddy Woods.

Statement of Peter Larsen:

Within the next few months the Burlington City Council will likely vote on a measure that is the de facto equivalent of blocking 99% of its residents from using 90% of one of its city parks. That measure is whether Leddy Park's wooded areas should be turned into an 18 hole Disk Golf Course. Yes, the City will retain technical ownership of the entire park. But …

Imagine yourself as being a non-golfer as you walk the fairways of an in-use regular golf course. Would you feel welcome? Of course not. Unkind words would surely fly, and I would expect fists would occasionally fly too. The same will be true of Disk Golf at Leddy park. If only 1% of Burlington's residents play disk golf, the other 99% will be unwelcome to use a huge percentage of Leddy Park , an area that is now quiet and tranquil woods with walking trails with wonderful wildlife viewing opportunities. Substantial tree cutting has already happened in anticipation of approval. Let the City Council know how you feel. Better yet, attend their meetings. The park is for everyone, not just the probably fewer than 1 percent of residents that play Disk Golf.


Apr 27, 2009

Rogue Play Disrespectful of Process

Disc golfers continue to play on the newly carved fairways at Leddy Park, in spite of a rather half-hearted attempt by the Parks Director to call for a moratorium while the issue is settled by the Parks Commission and City Council.

The following exchange took place: "Please don't take my picture." Reply: "Please don't play disc golf in my park." "Your park? YOUR park?" "Yes, my park. As in local taxpayer." End of discussion.

Local taxpayers monitor disc golf in Leddy Park, and call Parks Director Wayne Gross when rogue players are in the forest. Parks Director says there's not much he can do about it. We wonder what he would do if people were skeet shooting, practicing archery, or driving golf balls?

disc golf at leddy -- risky mix

From: kapandy@comcast.net
To: danh1@live.com [Dan is a member of the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group]
Subject: dis golf at leddy- a risky mix
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:45:00 -0400


I understand that you are interested in this issue and wanted to share a point of view. As an Orthopedist I welcome exercise of almost any kind, especially when it brings people out doors, but I think that cramming a flying disk course into the walking paths at Leddy is asking for a medical incident in the form of a startled older resident who falls or someone who is dragged down by a leashed dog that takes off after a sudden flying Frisbee.-- perhaps a broken hip or shoulder will be the first incident the city is forced to reimburse.

Basically, good activity, wrong choice of location.Dan, in my 20 years of dealing with injuries from countless causes, my instincts tell me that there is significant probable physical conflict in setting a disk golf course in Leddy Park. Thanks for your time, (please for ward to your colleagues on this committee)


Apr 26, 2009


"Disc golf working group recommends course in Leddy," posted on B'Town web site. B'Town Disc Golf member and technical advisor to the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group, Brendan Bush, reported this, and it is NOT TRUE.

March 25, 2009

"Last night, our community won another big step towards bringing disc golf to Burlington. The majority of the city-sponsored Disc Golf Working group firmly supported disc golf in Leddy Park and all members of the working group expressed support for disc golf in Burlington. » continue reading "Disc golf working group recommends course in Leddy"

To Lisa Coven, Parks Dept. staff:

The disc golf working group DID NOT recommend course in Leddy, and the majority of the city-sponsored Disc Golf Working group DID NOT firmly support disc golf in Leddy Park. Do you think it is appropriate for the Technical Advisor to the "city-sponsored [Leddy Park] disc golf working group" to post disinformation on the B'Town website? He may be viewed as an authoritative source. Perhaps you could ask him to correct the statement, or remove the post?

Also, Wayne Gross's press release is incomplete and inaccurate, and this sets a very bad example for the above named technical advisor. Mr. Gross neglects to mention that the vote to support disc golf in leddy park failed; and he claims a B'Town proposal was accepted by the Parks Commission when their minutes show that the Commission approved the concept only, with many questions.

Finally, there are errors and omissions in the draft minutes of the Apr 24 09 [Working Group] meeting, which I am sure you will want to correct by consulting the tape of the meeting:

Public Working Group Discussion about the Proposed Leddy Park Disc Golf Course - 03/24/2009

Burlington Parks & Recreation Department Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group Meeting.


Apr 25, 2009

Conceptual Approval does not authroize construction

Parks Commission members who claim that conceptual approval is the same as final approval are wrong. Conceptual approval has basis in law. Conceptual Approval does not authroize construction, or pre-development site work.

Definition of Conceptual Approval in law
Conceptual Approval, or Letter of Conceptual Approval, means approval of the concepts. Conceptual approvals are binding based upon the rules in effect at the time the conceptual application is filed on the public record. Construction and operation permits for each phase will be reviewed under the permitting criteria in effect when the application for conceptual approval was filed. A Conceptual Approval does not authorize construction.

Conceptual approval means the sanctioning or holding in favorable regard a general idea or non-specific notion of some proposed work. Conceptual approval does not automatically guarantee final approval of any subsequent submission. A conceptual approval of any project may be limited or further defined, in any manner the Commission members may wish.

Conceptual approval is understood to limit a proposal in terms of its general size, scale, materials and use. Any particular details shown in such a preliminary proposal need not be considered approved or denied unless specifically noted. With each conceptual approval granted, the final proposal, with details, shall be reviewed by the full Commission before the issuance of a permit for execution of the work.


On Feb 16, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Wayne Gross wrote:
Over the last few years we have had at least two other groups that I can recall propose to build a disc golf course somewhere in the parks. Oakledge was one location that was proposed. The Commission did give tentative approval of an 18 hole course at Leddy-pending the completion of a final memorandum of agreement between the Club and the City. Hope this information is useful.
Wayne E. Gross
Parks & Recreation

Was the final memorandum completed?
If not: And if you only had a tentative agreement, why did you move forward and clear land with dg people at Leddy?


February 16, 2009 1:25:02 PM EST

The agreement was being discussed and the basic concepts of the club building it and being responsible for upkeep had been agreed to so the Commission felt it was reasonable for them to go ahead and start the work.
Wayne E. Gross
Parks & Recreation

Getting to YES by any means necessary

Parks/Art/Culture Committee
Councilor Karen Paul, Chair
April 25, 2009
Councilor Paul:
Minutes of the July 15, 2008 Parks Commission meeting record that Bob Whalen recommended "conceptual approval" of a disc golf course in Leddy Park "so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies." Commissioners unanimously "approve[d] the concept."
Commissioner David Hartnett told us that he was voting on conceptual approval only, that there were many questions unanswered and they didn't have details yet. He thought the plan would come back for more discussion, and he was surprised when the tree cutting was reported. Other commission members are *now saying that "approve the concept" is the language they customarily use for final approval. The minutes support Hartnett's understanding. (Minutes copied below.)
People in Wards 4 and 7 feel swindled and tricked by the Parks Commission, and by Parks Dept staff who ran a series of working group meetings with a *stacked deck, and ground rules that changed repeatedly.
  • The NPAs were invited to nominate representatives to evaluate a proposal to build a disc golf course in Leddy Park.
  • The Leddy Park Disc golf Working Group was set up with 4 disc golf advocates and 3 other residents. All were instructed to communicate with their NPAs.
  • Only three working group members communicated with their NPAs. Kearney, Jenkins and Hunt reported monthly, sought input at NPA meetings, provided updates to residents at NPA meetings and provided information between meetings on FPF. When they voted NO to disc golf course in Leddy Park, they were representing their NPAs. Other members represented their friends or the disc golf club.
  • Early in the process, several working group members suggested that other sites would be better than Leddy Park. The Working Group was told by Parks staff that they could not discuss any other sites, that their charge was to evaluate the Leddy Park proposal only and vote on that.
  • At the last working group meeting, Mar. 24, the vote was 3-3 (one member was absent). The meeting should have ended!
  • But, the rules changed again. The working group was asked to make a list of recommendations for a disc golf course in Burlington, disc golf in general, and since there was no majority vote, one member from each side was invited to report to the Parks Commission on Apr 28.
  • A press release from the Parks Commissioner also ignored the vote as if it never happened. He reported that the Parks Commission approved a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club. The July 15, 2008 minutes do not support this claim.
  • The rules have changed again. Each working group member has now been invited to speak to the Parks Commission on Apr. 28.
We -- residents of Wards 4 and 7, and many other people in the city -- feel tricked and lied to. This Parks Commission and Parks Department are examples of government at its worst, process at it's lowest level of trickery. The working group was initially set up to favor disc golf in Leddy Park, and when they didn't deliver a majority vote, Parks Dept changed the rules.
Residents of Ward 4 and 7 respectfully request an opportunity to discuss this further with the Parks/Arts/Culture Committee and the Mayor. We want trustworthy process and accountability in city government, and since City Council and the Mayor appoints the Parks Commission, and the Parks Department director, we ask you to review this disc-golf-in-Leddy- Park mess and hold the Parks Commission and Parks staff accountable to you and to the taxpayers they serve.
Lea Terhune
Ward 4, NPA Steering Committee member

Minutes, Parks Commission meeting July 15, 2008
VIIB. Consideration of Proposal for Disc Golf Course Development

Whalen explained that other groups had come to him in the past and that the current group has definitely been the most persistent, committed and organized. He recommended that the Commission give conceptual approval of the proposal so that the club members can continue to develop details of the proposal and plan fundraising and implementation strategies.

The club members then introduced themselves and explained that disc golf has been around for 40 years, serves several different age populations and is a lot like golf but is played in natural areas. In addition the club explained that the sport offers healthy benefits for players as well as benefits to the community. The location is proposed at Leddy and will currently occupy space that is not utilized. The club proposes to use existing pathways where possible and generally only remove underbrush and saplings.

The club stated that they had hundreds of people interested in this project and have formed a non-profit and intend to raise $10,000. They said they were asking for approval of the project, but would appreciate input from the Commission and Department.

Hanson asked how this would affect people walking on the trails at Leddy and if a fee would be charged for players and was assured that people playing golf would not be directly on the trail but off the path and will also have out of bounds areas as well and there would be no fee to the City with the exception of some trash receptacles.

Ewing asked if there would need to be a lot of clearing of trees and was told very little and Nolfi asked if there were a lot of open spots and was told no as well.

Some concerns were raised about possible vandalism to the proposed project as well as some concern about college students and alcohol use/abuse and the club indicated that this has not been a problem at other facilities and they do not anticipate any at this location but would be mindful of these issues.

Allen asked if any neighborhood outreach has happened yet and also was concerned with too much signage and was told that they are currently in the process of doing some outreach and the signage would be minimal and they wanted to get further approval from the Commission before moving further.

Motion to approve the concept for a disc golf course. Hanson/Ewing. Motion carried.

*stacked deck, "now saying": If organizations are allowed to operate with rules or practices that are hugely slanted, they are often defended with the old chestnut of "That's the way we've always done it." Each time I encounter this, I marvel at how otherwise good people can rationalize shabby practices.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Gross" <WGross@ci.Burlington.vt.us>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Public Comment

> Hello to All:
> I have received a number of emails of late raising various questions
> about the Disc Golf Working Group. Let me clarify a few things. First,
> the Group is a public body and their meetings will be open to the
> public. A public forum will be provided at the start of each meeting.
> Please note that the purpose of such a forum is for the public to make
> comments to the Group. Regarding the scope of work for the Group, they are
> charged with reviewing various issues related to the possible
> development of a disc golf course only at Leddy Park and with making
> recommendations about this proposal to the Parks and Recreation
> Commission. They will not be evaluating other potential park sites for
> their suitability for a disc golf course. The Commission is interested
> in the Group's recommendation regarding Leddy Park and once this has
> been received, they will debate the issue and make a final
> recommendation to the City Council. I hope that this information is
> helpful to you and I look forward to seeing the results of the Working
> Group's efforts.
> Wayne E. Gross
> Director
> Parks & Recreation

Apr 18, 2009


> By Lincoln Mead, Wildwood Drive
> By Mark Barlow, Holly lane
> By Lea Terhune, NPA Steering Committee Member - Ward 4, Appletree Point Ln
> By Wayne Gross
> By Lincoln Mead, Wildwood Drive, lsmead@gmail.com
> Fri, 17 April 2009
> Next Board of Parks and Recreation Commissions Meeting 5pm Apr. 28th at
> Robert Miller Community Center
> As many FPF readers are aware, Btown Disc Golf Club (http://www.Btowndisc.com) is promoting an 18 hole disc golf course throughout most of the remaining woodlands in Leddy Park that significantly alter this valued natural area that belongs to all City residents. If you can't make it to the park to see the large clearings that were cut throughout the park for disc golf fairways last summer you can view the course map & photos showing the extent of cutting at www.leddypark.org. These clearings need to be restored and replanted this spring.
> What effects will Disc Golf have on Leddy Park? The disc golf slide show at www.leddypark.org uses real pictures of real disc golf courses in Vermont and around the country to make the following 4 points.
> 1. More concrete in the park: In addition to numerous concrete "artifacts" throughout the park left behind by the prior land owner, an 18 hole course will require pouring 18 large concrete slabs throughout the park to serve as Tees. The Professional Disk Golf Association's course design guidelines specify the optimum size for concrete Tees to be 12 ft. by 7 ft. For 18 holes of disc golf that's over 1,500 sq. ft. in total. Additional concrete would be required to set the 18 Baskets.
> 2. Erosion and soil compaction: These issues will not be adequately mitigated by pouring concrete Tee pads or laying down thick beds of wood chips. The Tee pictures show the extent of erosion and soil compaction that can be expected surrounding Tees and Baskets in Leddy Park. Pictures of Baskets show the amount of wear and compaction that will be experienced in those areas.
> 3. Danger from flying discs: These dangers are real, especially in mixed use areas, as show by the variety of disc golf warning signs.
> 4. Other signage and advertising: These slides make the point that the woods would be filled with disc golf course signs and advertising on baskets.
> *Disc Golf Working Group to Report to the Parks and Recreation Commission Apr. 28*
> On March 24th , after hearing public comments running 24 to 3 in favor of woodland preservation, the working group appointed by the Parks & Recreation Commission to make disc golf recommendations turned in a 3/3 split vote. You can view the actual vote at www.cctv.org/node/72604. The working group will be reporting the results of this vote to the Parks and Recreation Commission at a public forum scheduled Tuesday, April 28th at 5:00 PM at the Robert Miller Community Center at the end of Goss Court.
> Please attend this meeting and voice your support for Leddy Park.
> -Lincoln Mead
> --------------------
> By Mark Barlow, Holly lane, k.mark.barlow@gmail.com
> Fri, 17 April 2009
> Recent claims by Btown Disc Golf Club members on FPF, their web site, and in leaflets, mischaracterize opposition to their Leddy Park disc golf course proposal as the work of a few park neighbors who want to keep the park to themselves. Legitimate concerns and issues that have been voiced by many city residents are routinely described as half-truths and scare tactics.
> As a Burlington resident, tax payer, and park user for over 35 years, I find this ongoing attempt by Btown to divide our community and discredit and dismiss the concerns of our city residents, offensive. The group's actions and ongoing sense of entitlement to our public park, call into question the viability of this private club as a credible partner in the development of any disc golf course our Parks & Recreation Commission may choose to build.
> I am probably one of the park neighbors that the disc golf club refers to. I live near the park and helped organize LeddyPark.org when the disc golf threat began last summer. www.LeddyPark.org is a web site and community forum whose aim is to represent the interests of the many Burlington residents committed to preserving Leddy Park's remaining natural areas.
> Opposition to disc golf in Leddy Park is not limited to supporters of LeddyPark.org. In September 2008, over 260 Burlington residents signed a petition asking for an independent environmental assessment of the disc golf project and called for a Master Plan for the park before approving any further development. Both Ward 4 and Ward 7 Neighborhood Planning Assemblies (NPA) passed resolutions opposing disc golf in Leddy Park and requesting that Parks & Recreation work with the disc golf club to identify alternative sites for a disc golf course in Burlington, or surrounding communities. 3 out of 4 mayoral candidates in the City election this past March opposed Btown's proposed disc golf course at Leddy Park, and both Ward 4 City Council candidates expressed opposition. Ward 5 NPA just passed a resolution in response to the disc golf proposal at Leddy Park, calling for the creation of master plans for our city parks before making significant changes to park assets.
> Our city and its residents realize the important value of open space in building a sustainable and livable community. This sentiment has echoed through the many comments submitted by supporters of park preservation on LeddyPark.org. Leddy Park is truly special, and its natural areas have been valued for decades as they provide a unique refuge in a tranquil natural setting for recreational activities like walking, running, and wildlife watching. City residents commenting on LeddyPark.org use terms like "sanctuary", "quietude", and "oasis" when describing the woodland areas of the park.
> When conceptual approval was given to continue planning a disc golf course at Leddy Park last summer, city residents and current park users had not been given a chance to weigh in on the project, Parks & Recreation officials had never even been to a disc golf course, and approval was made on the false premise that the natural areas of Leddy Park were unused or underused. We've all learned a lot about Leddy Park and disc golf since last summer.
> I have attended most of the public meetings and forums related to disc golf at Leddy Park and after 6 months of discussion and deliberation I have still not heard city residents' concerns about environmental impact, a master plan, or safety adequately addressed. More importantly I have not heard a single compelling argument why Burlington would want to displace the well established current recreational uses and transform such a unique and special public natural area, valued by so many for so long, into a disc golf course.
> Hopefully our Parks Commission has the wisdom in the coming month to chart a course for the park we love that will provide for an inclusive process to develop a Master Plan before any additional development is done. And hopefully a Master Plan for Leddy Park will formally preserve and protect this scarce and valuable city open space for the continued enjoyment of so many Burlington residents.
> Let's Save Leddy Park.
> --------------------
> By Lea Terhune, NPA Steering Committee Member - Ward 4, Appletree Point Ln, leaterhune2@comcast.net
> Fri, 17 April 2009
> The minutes of the March 24, 2009 Leddy Park Disc Golf (LPDG) Working Group need to be corrected. There are many significant errors and omissions. Disk Golf in Leddy Park was NOT approved.
> A list of recommendations recorded in the minutes are about disk golf in general, NOT about disk golf in Leddy Park. That clarification is not included in the minutes. It is not included because discussion points of working group members, and subsequent facilitator input, are not included in the minutes. Pat Kearney stated several times that the charge to the working roup was to consider disc golf in Leddy Park only. He called for Leddy Park to be taken off the table before any discussion of general recommendations, because the 3-3 vote failed to support disk golf in Leddy Park. Kearney stated several times that disk golf sites in general were outside the charge given to the working group, and therefore creating a list of recommendations about sites in general was out of order.
> ~~~~~~
> There are no names of residents who testified at the public forum, and no reference in the minutes to packets of information and written testimony submitted to the working group -- for example by Ward 4 and Ward 7 NPAs, Friends of Leddy Park, a forester, a landscape designer, 26 residents and 3 B'town Disc Golf Club members. Minutes of the meeting need to include the names of people who spoke at the public forum, summaries of their statements, and reference to any attachments, documents, or displays they submitted as testimony.
> ~~~~~~
> Public testimony about instructions to working group members -- that they communicate with their NPAs -- was not included in the minutes. Four working group members -- Nick Hinge, Dan Herman, Matt Hogg, and Harry Wendt, participated in working group discussions, and voted, without any communication with their NPAs. Pat Kearney, Greg Jenkins, and Joanne Hunt met regularly with their NPAs, brought updates and information from the LPDG Working Group to their NPAs, requested input from residents, and conveyed residents' ideas and opinions back to the Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group. This point was made in testimony during the public forum, but it was not mentioned in the minutes. I testified to this, I submitted written testimony as well, and I respectfully request that it be included in the minutes.
> There is a tape of the meeting available at the Ch17 website -- http://www.cctv.org/node/72604/ -- which can be used to correct these minutes, and they need to be corrected.
> NEXT PUBLIC HEARING: Apr 28, Parks and Rec Commission.
> Lea Terhune
> Ward 4 NPA Steering Committee
> --------------------
> By Wayne Gross
> Fri, 17 April 2009
> PRESS RELEASE - For immediate release on April 17, 2009
> The Burlington Board of Parks and Recreation Commissioners is scheduled to receive a report from the Disc Golf Working Group at its meeting on April 28. The Working Group will present their report at a time certain of 5:45 PM at the Commission meeting which will take place at the Robert Miller Community and Recreation Center located at 130 Gosse Court. Immediately following the presentation to the Commission, a Public Hearing will be held where interested citizens will have the opportunity to comment on the proposal and the Groupâ?Ts recommendations. The Commission will not take any action on the report and the comments at the April 28 meeting. The report will be discussed and voted on by the Commission at its next scheduled meeting on May 19.
> The seven member citizen Working Group was appointed last fall by the Commission to evaluate a proposal for the creation of a disc golf course in Leddy Park. After initially approving a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club, work was stopped on the project after the Department received comments from the public about possible negative impacts on the park. After holding a public hearing last fall, the Commission decided to appoint a group to evaluate a variety of issues regarding the impact of the project on Leddy Park and report back to the Commission. The Burlington City Council has requested to review the decision of the Commission before any further work on the project take place.
> Contact:
> Wayne E. Gross
> Director of Parks and Recreation
> 865-7557
> --------------------Ed. Note: Gross fails to mention that a motion of the working group to support disk golf in Leddy Park FAILED on a 3-3 vote; and, the Parks Commission did not approve the B'Town proposal, they approved the concept only. They did not authorize clear-cutting of fairways, or construction of the course.

Apr 17, 2009

Press Release does not mention that working group vote failed to support disc golf course in Leddy Park


For immediate release on April 17, 2009


The Burlington Board of Parks and Recreation Commissioners is scheduled to receive a report from the Disc Golf Working Group at its meeting on April 28. The Working Group will present their report at a time certain of 5:45 PM at the Commission meeting which will take place at the Robert Miller Community and Recreation Center located at 130 Gosse Court. Immediately following the presentation to the Commission, a Public Hearing will be held where interested citizens will have the opportunity to comment on the proposal and the Group’s recommendations. The Commission will not take any action on the report and the comments at the April 28 meeting. The report will be discussed and voted on by the Commission at its next scheduled meeting on May 19.

The seven member citizen Working Group was appointed last fall by the Commission to evaluate a proposal for the creation of a disc golf course in Leddy Park. After initially approving a proposal from the BTown Disc Golf Club, work was stopped on the project after the Department received comments from the public about possible negative impacts on the park. After holding a public hearing last fall, the Commission decided to appoint a group to evaluate a variety of issues regarding the impact of the project on Leddy Park and report back to the Commission. The Burlington City Council has requested to review the decision of the Commission before any further work on the project take place.

Wayne E. Gross
Director of Parks and Recreation

Apr 3, 2009

disc golf should not be played in Leddy Park

Per the request of Russ Ellis, I am forwarding the message that I sent to the BTown Disc Golf Club about the playing of disc golf at Leddy at the present time. I hope this information is helpful.
Wayne E. Gross

>Wayne Gross 03/30/09 10:02 AM >
> Hello All: I have received several messages indicating that some folks
> have been playing disc golf at Leddy using the fairways that were cut
> last year. I assume that portable baskets were being used for these
> rounds. Given the fact that this project remains very much a
> controversial public matter and no decision has been made at this time
> whether or not it will be approved, I ask that you inform all the club
> members that disc golf should not be played in Leddy Park at this time.
> I will very much appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Thank you.
> Wayne E. Gross
> Director
> Parks & Recreation
> 645 Pine St., Suite B
> Burlington, VT 05401
> (802) 864-0123 (phone)
> (802) 862-8027 (fax)
> wgross@ci.burlington.vt.us

Ed. Note: Rogue play in the park continues. Becauseof the rash actions by the Parks Dept., we have a de facto disc golf course in Leddy Park, with no warning signs to the public.

Apr 2, 2009

Notice to B'town -- no disc golf in Leddy Park

March 30, 2009 10:08 AM

To: Karen Paul

Cc: Steve Allen

Subject: RE: disc golf


I have sent a message to the leaders of the disc golf club instructing them to notify their members not to play disc golf at Leddy [Park]. I had a staff person check out the park on Friday afternoon and they did not find anyone playing but it is a hard thing to always locate.

Wayne [Gross, Parks Department]



The added thickness in the outer part of the rim helps tremendously in 2 different ways over the Aviar. 1st, it adds structure stability to the over all shape of the disc by reinforcing it, because of the added thickness. Even a very used wizard will remain close to perfect roundness) The 2nd function is adding to the gyroscopic ness of the disc, Flat out a more gyroscopic disc will spin longer. The longer the spin, the longer a disc can hold a flight pattern. Bottom line, The Wizard is straighter and flies with a much tighter "S" pattern and will hold just about any line you put it on for a longer period of time whether its 30 feet or 300 feet, 20 mph or 70 MPH!!!!.


The speed of the disc is shown on the horizontal axis. The chart shows a good correlation between speed and distance. For example, a disc thrown correctly and efficiently at a speed of 50 mph is likely to travel about 300 feet. Reaching a distance of 400 feet or more requires a disc speed of around 70 to 75 mph. The circled group of plots seems to be a slight anomaly. It shows a group of discs that traveled a long distance, but with a slower disc speed. This might be attributed to the amount of spin imparted on the disc, the height that it was thrown, and wind direction. Increased angular momentum (spin) will help keep the disc stable and aloft for a longer period of time.

The weight and model of discs thrown varied from player to player. This factor also contributed to how fast a disc was thrown, and how far it glided. The most popular weights of disc used by the professionals in this study were 165 grams (11%), 172 grams (10%), 174 grams (14%), and 175grams (17%). The disc models that flew the farthest were the Discraft Xtra, Innova Teebird , Discraft XL, and Innova Eagle.

Additional speed and distance measurements were taken using amateur players. Table 1 gives the disc golfer an idea about the level of expertise needed to play in a particular division.


In other sporting news, Uncle Matthew "Mattie" Myrold took 2nd Place in the 2007 Mandan Mountain Jam disc golf tournament last weekend. Not only does success at disc golf involve amazing stamina walking from hole to hole, but also a great deal of skill to fling your disc into the bucket (or to locate your errant disc under a pile of tree branches and leaves after you fling it into the forest). It's a great sport for those seeking a leisure activity without a lot of danger. Then again, one of the last times Stew played a round of golf with Uncle's Matt, Pete, Kermit and Russell, Stew ended up in the emergency room receiving four stitches to close the laceration above his eye caused by a (deliberate) disc to the noggin (thrown by Kermit). Anyway, a high-paw to Uncle Mattie. Well done, lad!


Don't expect to see many freestyle discs out on the course. These discs, commonly seen at the beach, will prove to be bulky and lack the distance you'll want for driving. On the other hand, the sharper edges of a golf disc can be very painful if used for a game of catch!


"I was walking with a group of colleagues to the K-State Student Union from Eisenhower Hall to give a presentation, and I didn't even see him throw it," said Angelia Perry, an adviser in Kansas State University's College of Arts and Sciences. "I felt a sharp pain between my index finger and the middle finger."

She'd been hit by a student teeing off on K-State's unofficial but popular disc golf course. The cost: a torn collateral ligament on the middle finger of her right hand, six weeks in a splint and occupational therapy every other day. "I still have quite a bit of swelling," Perry said. "You can definitely look at it and see it."

Golf discs are smaller than the familiar Frisbee, but they can weigh just as much. The denser disc also has a thinner, sharper edge. "I've been hit with them and they hurt," said Richard H. Seaton Jr., a Manhattan lawyer who plays occasionally, though not at K-State


We played the first two holes without incident, if anything, I was doing slightly worse than normal. Then we got to the thrid hole. Everyone "tee'd-off" fine, the "incident" happend as I was going to get my disc. I threw mine quite a bit to the right, so I broke away from everyone I was with to retrieve my masterfully thrown disc. The second I looked back to see how everyone else was doing, Daragh's disc was less than a foot from my face.

I saw the blue disc coming at me. I even recall being able to make out the shiney logo on the disc signifying it as a "Wraith", but, as previously stated, it was less than a foot away, so their was nothing I could do. Inevitably, the disc hit me in the face, and I fell to the ground. Where that disc hit is definatly on the list of places I never wanted a disc to come anywhere near, right in the fucking nose. I could complane about how much that hurt untill MySpace cuts me off. Instead of that, I will just suffice to say that it was an indescribable amount of pain.

I fell to the ground as soon as I felt the disc and my face touch. I was, at first, angry at Daragh, overcome by the rage that is produced from getting hit in the nose, the anger stopped as soon as I felt the blood. As I was lying on the ground bleeding, rolling around in pain, and screaming I thought to myself that this was the kind of stuff that makes awesome internet videos.

There I was, lying on the ground, bleeding profusely, and an inconvenient distance to any of our vehicles. Luckly, my friends were there to help me up, gather my things and walk with me to Brian's car. Of course, along the way I was bleeding over everything I came near, I even had to spit just to utter a few sylables,(and yet no blood landed my my clothes, hellz right!). Once I was at the parking place I asked if anyone had an old shirt or something so didn't have to just stand there and bleed out like a retard. Thank God brian had an old Pink Floyd shit in his car, ( hopefully he doesn't want it back), so I used that as a bandage untill we made it to my house.

When I got home, the only one there was Claire. I told her to call the parents and tell them I needed to go to the docter. As she did this I went upstairs to clean the blood off of me. When I got to a mirror to look myslef over my entire right hand and alot of my left forearm were covered in dried blood. I removed Brain's shirt from my nose to see what it looked like and I was imediatly reminded of the cover of Andrew W.K.'s first CD. (I'll leave a picture of it at the bottom for referance.) As I was looking at myself in the mirror I saw exactly where the disc hit me.There was an impressively deep gash directly under my left nosteral. MY NOSE WASN'T BROKEN!!

My dad got home and looked me over before taking me to the docter. On the way there my dad preped me by telling me that the shot of novacane I will be given will hurt alot, thanks Dad!(sarcasm). After some nurses take my vitals and all that jazz Dr. Veit comes in to give me my stiches. I lay down on the table and he tells me grab on to the side because this is about to hurt alot. Very comferting. I was holding the washcloth I used to wipe away blood so I asked him if I could bite down on it. What he said next is not altered in any way, hence the quote marks, he said "You might as well, because you have no idea how much this is about to hurt."

That day I learned something. I learned that because of all the blood vesels in the nose, novacane washes out quickly.....TO DANM QUICKLY! I had five stiches put into my nose, and I felt the needle go into my skin on every single stich. Luckly, I now have one hell of a story to tell. ...well, thats it. Bye


Driven by his remarkable desire to volunteer his time to the disc golf community and efficiently report tournament scores, Steve Ganz also decided to follow the Frisbee mantra of Play Frisbee, Invent Games, with a new game I thankfully haven't seen before, Disc Golf Frogger. With 50 or so golfers lined up, across a 100 feet wide teeing zone, all throwing at a target 200 feet away at the same time in the mid-round, ace race competition, Steve Ganz decided the time he could save running through the target zone was well worth the extra 30-45 seconds it would have taken to run around everybody, in order to get those scores taken care of in a timely fashion. He made it past level 4, dodging drivers left and right, but then he got to the level where the slow 18-wheeler makes you wait and then jump through quickly to avoid both the semi and the speeding race car in the next lane of traffic. He made it past the semi, but the speeding race car caught up with him in a head on collision, right between the eyes. The driver, still near top speed upon impact, took him down, but Steve got right back up after a hazy minute or so, blood streaming from the face. He goes to the emergency room, get 4 stitches in short order by doctors and nurses who either had played ultimate, disc golf, or where at least familiar with the game, and is back to enter scores and get them posted on the internet before most players even make it home. Then he comes back the next day, and does it again. The man is simply incredible.


Disc golf, for those who aren't hip to the scene, man, is like golf only instead of the clubs you have your arms, and instead of balls you have flying discs, and instead of sand traps you have German shepherds. That's because most disc golf courses are integrated into public parks, so every jogger, dog and adorable, soccer-playing urchin is potentially going to be taking a disc in the eye. It's not entirely relaxing. Instead of holes you have baskets, which are called "holes," and like golf, you try to keep your score low and your swear words as creative as possible.


There are a wide variety of discs, divided into three basic categories: putters, mid-range discs, and drivers. Within each of these categories, each disc has its own distinct flight characteristics. There are golf discs designed to fly straight, turn left, or turn right, depending on how they are thrown by the player. The putters are designed similar to discs you would play catch with: e.g., a Wham-o brand Frisbee®. They are designed to fly straight and predictably, and very slowly compared to the other two. Mid-range discs have slightly sharper edges, which enable them to cut through the air better. These discs are harder to learn to throw, but can fly much farther. Drivers have the sharpest edge and have most of their mass concentrated on the outer rim of the disc rather than distributed equally throughout. Drivers are the hardest types of discs to learn how to throw; their flight path will be very unpredictable without practice. There are several classes of drivers intended for different distances: depending on a driver's “stability,” it could be a straight or turning driver. Golf discs typically weigh between 150 and 180 grams (5.3-6.3 oz.), and measure about 21-24 cm in diameter. PDGA rules prohibit discs weighing more than 200 grams, or whose weight is more than 8.3 grams per centimeter of diameter.


When you are out on the disc golf course it is crucial to be careful, courteous and alert to ensure that everyone can enjoy the game to the fullest. If you are playing with a large group and notice a smaller group behind you waiting for you to finish up it is common courtesy to give them a yell and let them know it's okay to "play through," meaning that you will stop playing for a few minutes to allow them to play the hole and pass you on the course so that you no longer hold them up. If you get to the tee for a particular hole and there is a group in front of you still playing that hole, do not throw your discs until that entire group has finished and moved on to the next hole. As one might expect getting hit with a flying piece of plastic can cause serious injury, so it is very important to make sure everyone around you is alert and aware when you are throwing your disc.


The NIKE plastic ULTRALIGHT’s are a much thinner, lower profile disc. Read FAST! Their sharp edge and low disc height allow them to be released screaming fast without flipping or showing an understable flight pattern.


The other issue for PDGA disc specs is assure there is some reasonable safety
to discs and disc materials used in the sport. The disc safety issue is real,
particularly in DG courses that in mixed use areas. One can make a reasonable
case that the PDGA should limit play in mixed use courses to 150 class discs or
possibly even less. This is probably going to happen only after some
'incident' makes it a necessity.

The other safety issue is if one takes an approved disc of stiff plastic and
sands a razor sharp edge to


... Disc Golf.
Actually you have to watch out for the Disc's...I have seen people knocked off their feet by them,the discs are small and heavy with a fairly sharp edge on the distance discs,and no they are not throwing at you, those that get close are normaly errant throws,Unless you happen to be standing by the baskets. I helped design that course when it was first installed many years ago and used to run tournaments out there


The main reason the course is to be moved has to do with safety reasons, said Facilities Management Director Brian Chase."The fact is we've had a number of students seriously injured," Chase said. "That's a serious liability to the university."

Two specific cases last fall required victims to get facial stitches and dental work, Chase said.Bill Wright, owner of The Wright Life, a disc golf store in Fort Collins, said the high traffic around the lagoon and disc golf course on campus is a problem.

"The current course isn't ideal," Wright said. "It's no fun when you go out to play and you have to wait for people. You really have to be careful about who might come into that flight path."


The decision to relocate its disc golf course one-quarter mile further away from the center of campus was prompted in part by the increasing number of angry phone calls about it. Complaints made by pedestrians struck or almost struck by errant discs, compounded by continued vandalism to "improve" the course, such as tree limb removal and shrub damage-resulting in an estimated $10,000 to $15,000 in damage to landscaping over the last few years-led the facilities services department and recreation center to work together in search of an alternate location, says Gordon Gresch, facility manager of the Student Recreation Center.

Years ago, during the heyday of the original Wham-O Frisbee, students set up a makeshift disc golf course in an area on campus near the university's gymnasium. The games then were mostly of the casual, pickup variety, and use of the course was infrequent, notes Gresch.

In the last few years, the lighter Frisbee was cast aside for heavier, denser discs that could be thrown much farther. The sport of disc golf also grew in popularity, leading to the creation of a competitive disc golf team that regularly used the course. "It went from a recreational event to a sporting event," says Gresch.

But it was the increasingly close calls and direct hits on pedestrians during games that started the relocation discussions. After considering several potential sites that were away from the center of campus, one location stood out as the perfect venue-on the outskirts of campus in an area where there are no immediate plans for new buildings.


The department plans to bring in an independent arborist to evaluate the possible environmental effects that the popular alternative sport might have had on the area.

The department's Urban Forestry Division has recommended that the nine- hole course be taken down. Section supervisor Mike Hegerhorst inspected the course and the surrounding area last year and reported that the discs used for the sport have damaged the bark of trees and that the additional foot traffic from disc golfers has led to erosion problems.

"We encourage all manners of recreational pursuits in the park," Recreation and Park spokeswoman Rose Marie Dennis said. "But if we infringe on the health of trees, ultimately (Marx Meadow) may not be the best place for this pursuit."


Tips & Warnings

  • If you're making up your own course and designating your own targets, be considerate of others. An errant flying disc can injure someone.
  • Select targets that are sturdy. If you must use a tree for a target, aim only at mature, strong trees. Young trees can be damaged if repeatedly struck with heavy flying discs.


The disc technology has advanced to a point where discs are being thrown over 400 feet. These discs are sold to amateurs, some of whom are strong and capable of long throws once in awhile. On most golf courses that means a lost disc, lost time and some hazard to players, cameramen and other users of our parks.

Then came a couple of accidental hits in Japan's Showa Park. No one was injured, but you may have surmised that now no discs more than 150s gram are all that is allowed. Sensing this inherent problem our disc could create in parts in the United States, Dan Roddick and several others including myself, thought that starting a 150 class would at least give us a foot in the door (or disc in the basket) if, God forbid, something similar to Showa Park happens.

So now you know the 150 class is to preserve the future of our sport and is currently the standard for Recreational Disc Golf Association (RDGA) courses, not the law.

On a happy note, our 150 Cyclone will outthrow a 176 Cyclone, Isaac Newton figured that out before I was born, which was a while ago.

Try one before you pass judgment and don't allow a fairway that will cross a pedestrian area. Together we can protect the future of our sport, the sport we all love.


The city of Twin Falls recently decided to close down a disc golf course at Thomsen Park after only about a year, because of complaints from neighbors about disc golfers leaping over fences, crushing gates, crawling on roofs and even crashing a wedding to fetch lost discs.

"We were really surprised a disc could fly that far off course," Dennis Bowyer, the city's parks and recreation director, told the Times-News in March. "Some people can throw it 60 to 70 yards. The wind catches it. It drives. It hooks. It can go off course."

Rogers and Carrico said this is not a huge concern.

"We'll minimize the risk with signage," said Rogers. "We know discs will go there … Be respectful."

Vandalism could also be a persistent issue, Rogers and Carrico conceded.


WARNING: There are usually a few people in this park studying, reading, or relaxing on the grass and children playing in the play area. Disc Golf discs are harder and heavier than your typical Frisbee and can cause pain and possibly serious injury, so be vocal and be very careful!


  1. Councilman Suellentrop expressed concern regarding the amount of time being spent to maintain the disc golf course and questioned if the Council was aware of how much time was involved and how much the course was being used.


i played disc golf for the second time last thursday. the first time was with normal discs with peter berdovsky in some woods in maybe arlington some time last year. we threw at rocks and trees and picnic tables. this time was with norwegians with fancy heavy compact (~8.5" diameter) rubbery discs -- each dude carried between fifteen and twenty discs that all hook or slice or roll in different ways -- aiming at ground-planted fancy-dancy metal baskets with chain catches.
these discs fly really strangely and even though most of the guys looked super-pro with their array of colorful discs lined up in their specially designed disc-golf bags (where are the caddies people?) they still didn't really seem to have such awesome control. any of the discs takes a good while to get used to - so yeah i am not sure that having just one disc was really such a disadvantage for a first real attempt. some other douche that also joined up just that day was throwing some practice throws before we really started. he decided to throw in my direction and decided to wait to shout "heads up" until just milliseconds before the disc actually hit me... in the head. thanks douchetard. anyway. whatever. it is almost healed. but it seems like i loose blood every time i try a new disc thing or new disc place. or. i am just an injury magnet.


In the last few years, the lighter Frisbee was cast aside for heavier, denser discs that could be thrown much farther. The sport of disc golf also grew in popularity, leading to the creation of a competitive disc golf team that regularly used the course. "It went from a recreational event to a sporting event," says Gresch.

But it was the increasingly close calls and direct hits on pedestrians during games that started the relocation discussions. After considering several potential sites that were away from the center of campus, one location stood out as the perfect venue--on the outskirts of campus in an area where there are no immediate plans for new buildings.