.
A message from Wayne E. Gross, Director of Parks and Recreation, posted on Front Porch Forum: “The Department of Parks and Recreation, in conjunction with the BTown Disc Golf Club, is constructing a disc golf course in Leddy Park. The Department received a proposal from the Club that was reviewed by staff and approved by the Parks and Recreation Commission. Disc golf is a low impact activity that is similar to golf but involves throwing of disc "Frisbees" into metal baskets. The course layout is entirely within the wooded area of Leddy Park and will have minimal visibility from the active and developed areas of the park and there will be a buffer between the course and adjoining properties. I know that there has been some concern expressed about possible tree cutting to accommodate this project. I have been contacted by both Ward 4 City Councilors Kurt Wright and Russ Ellis about this concern. Please know that there will not be any tree cutting done. Only underbrush and tree saplings are being cut and this is being done under the supervision of City Arborist Warren Spinner. Disc Golf is a fun and popular activity that we think is appropriate for this location. This activity will also bring increased use to the wooded portions of the park and will discourage some inappropriate uses such as homeless encampments, illegal dumping, and vandalism that have taken place in this area in the past. For more information about the BTown Disc Golf Club and details of the project, please visit the Club website at http://www.btowndisc.com. I hope this information is helpful to everyones understanding of this project.” Wayne Gross.
Greg Jenkins, a member of the Ward 7 NPA Steering Committee, was outspoken on the project. He was asked to compile a list of residents concerns posted on Front Porch Forum and sent to him. Greg writes: “It was asked of me that I compile a list of questions/concerns, bothpositive, and negative in regards to disk golf at Leddy Park. I have cut and pasted all the emails I have received in regards to this issue. The bulk of what follows, are not my words, but the thoughts of our community.” Greg Jenkins
Each comment or question is tagged with a category that is the main point of the comment. The categories are:
· decision process
· taxpayer costs and maintenance
· competing uses in the park
· game of disc golf
· general, includes several categories
Decision Process: I agree with your priority. The "process" for approving this plan was terrible. This may be the "poster child" for Open Government in Burlington.
Decision Process: But these questions are all about how to use the course. I am still opposed to the course at all, because of the process used to get it started. There was no information to the public, no input was sought. Clear cutting was started before anyone even knew about the project.
Decision Process: Why was there no notification to the residents of Burlington, the current users of the Park and the adjoining property owners before this plan was approved?
Decision Process: Homeowners need to pay for zoning permits, building permits and post public notice prior to making property modifications. Why isn’t Parks and Rec. required to provide similar notice when there are significant changes to public spaces? What is the Process?_ The plan has been approved, construction started and now suspended. Will construction resume following this meeting, or5 will Parks and Rec. suspend its approval of this plan to allow for more public comment and more assessment of the impacts of this significant change in the use of the Park?
Decision Process: For me, it is not about the game, it's about* the process* the City followed, the lack of any public input, using a city commission to make a big change like that in our park. Leddy is a quiet sanctuary of trails and woods, for thousands of residents. Because we don't call it a game, and we don't compete with each other in that space, our use doesn't count for anything? I walk the Leddy trails almost every day, and I am incensed that city government takes it over for a sport that brings 1200 people a week to throw Frisbees around in the woods, or whatever they do. Leddy Park Rd is narrow and people park along it now, making it unsafe for bicyclists and people walking.
Now the city will turn the public discussion into pro and con disc golf, which is not the frame of the argument
Decision Process: Environmental Impact. Has Parks and Rec. had an independent environmental assessment done of the impacts of disc golf at Leddy Park? If Yes, will this assessment be made public before there is further construction? If no independent environmental assessment has been done, has Parks and Rec. evaluated the impact of this course in terms of:
1. Existing park activities and uses?
2. Increased traffic? (There may be enough parking for the possible 1,000 players per week, but can the access road and intersection at North Ave. support this increased traffic without negative impacts?
3. Impact on vegetation within and at the boundaries of the course? (There is a stand of wintergreen plants at the base of the proposed 10th “hole”. Will this vegetation and others be protected or subjected to the foot traffic of the course players? What will happen to vegetation when players leave the course to find mis-thrown and lost discs?)
4. Impact on wildlife in the park? (At least one pileated woodpecker nesting tree has already been cut down to make way for the course.)
5. Impact on shoreline. How will the fragile lakefront banks and steep ravine areas be protected from erosion due to players leaving the course to retrieve mis-thrown and lost discs?
6. Safety and Liability_Some of the course “fairways” cross and intersect with existing walking and bike paths and are quite close to adjoining properties. Has Parks and Rec. had an independent evaluation of the safety and liability aspects of this course? If there is damage to public or private-adjoining property, or personal injury to a player or someone on a walking or bike path, what is the City’s liability exposure? What recourse will adjoining property owners have if there are broken windows, damaged siding, etc. from mis-thrown discs?
7. Why Leddy Park?_Were other parks or City locations evaluated for disc golf? If Yes, why were these other locations eliminated? If other parks/locations were not evaluated, why not?
8. Supervision. Will there be any supervision of the course? Will there be any restrictions on the use of the course in terms of its use during the seasons of the year, time of day, weather, the number of people, the presence of alcohol and noise levels? If Yes, how will these restrictions be enforced?
9. Will they outline the course with string to show the defined "fairways"; however, a great number of the thrown discs will not remain within the outline of the fairways (ever need to play a golf ball from the "rough", search for a lost ball (discs cost $15-$25 so folks will be walking around outside the course-on vegetation, up and down fragile lakefront banks and steep ravines to retrieve mis-thrown discs)
Decision Process: I had to get a zoning permit just to put in replacement windows. This is what I found out about this Frisbee golf today. I left a message with Parks and Rec, which was returned mid-afternoon. I then called Planning and Zoning. No permits were applied for, nor issued. I faxed over a Zoning compliant form. When I spoke with Parks and Rec I was told that this group of people would just be cutting down brush and shrub (which become our future trees BTW) and it would have a minimal impact. When I informed him about the zoning issue and that I had filed a report, I was told that work had been stopped and that a meeting was being scheduled to determine if a permit was needed. Now it gets to the good part, I just got back from Leddy Park, my definition of a shrub is not a tree that is as thick as my forearm. They have started to cut a 30' wide opening through one of our few remaining woodlands. Imagine 18 of these paths of dirt, and what they will look like after a few years when all the grass is worn down. The people need to decide what is done with our public spaces. Show me the full plan of what is going to be done, how it will be used, and its impact on the area, and then, maybe, I could support this.
Decision Process: Is there a documented process that Parks and Rec must go through when making improvements to facilities or taking on new sports / etc? Consulting neighborhoods? Putting it up for a vote? Does the city have a plan in place for this? I'm not sure what jurisdiction this falls under - permitting / zoning / etc.? The park is city property, no?
Decision Process: I've been down through Leddy when softball is in full swing – the amount of auto traffic and parking in the woods is a joke - and think about the trees that were already gone because we want to smack a ball around... this was my point - we need to be supportive of uses in our neighborhoods - but how can we judge what uses are 'right' and what are wrong. If the softballers get a place to play, so should the disc golfers... and I agree that if there is a process that was not followed - there should be a pause and a review. If there is not a process, then this should move forward under the conditions with which it started - and the NPA should work with the city to develop a process for the development of city land / parks / with neighborhood input.
Decision Process: Regarding the disc golf project: a lot more trees could be down by Sept 4th. The photos show a path of devastation throughout the ENTIRE park! I suggest obtaining a temporary injunction.
Decision Process: Are you aware that there is an 18 hole disk golf course being built in Leddy Park? Friday when I was walking in the park I saw two members of the disc golf club cutting trees down to make the first couple of holes. This cutting has started on the south side of the park. Please take a look at http://www.btowndisc.com website. There is a map of the whole layout where trees will be cut and course lay out. When I went to the Burlington Parks and Recreation Web site there is no information about this development. I would like to get community members talking about this. My concern is that no information was posted. All decisions have been put into place and the group has the go ahead from the parks and rec to develop all this wild land. Please talk to your neighbors and inform all park users of this big development. Please contact Parks and Rec and your city council members to discuss what is being done.
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: I do have another question that you may want to discuss a bit during the meeting. If parking becomes an issue up in the free area, will the city require parks and rec parking stickers in order to park in the bigger lot down by the hockey rink? I assume so, and guess this may result in some small revenue associated with the course. As to your comment about where do people go to the bathroom, I noticed there are restrooms up by the soccer fields/tennis courts and I believe the restrooms in the hockey rink are open to the public. I imagine it
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: Will any Parks and Rec. staff time be used on this project? To organize use, or clean up the woods? I ask this because I have talked to Parks and Rec. in the past about having a staff person at Leddy Beach. they told me they did not have the time or staff to have anyone down there at any time. I would not support using Parks and Rec. staff time for the disc golf, if we cannot even have a person overseeing use of the beach. First things first.
Taxpayer Costs and Maintenance: Who is paying for this? Who will maintain it? Who is carrying the insurance if someone gets hurt? How much are they paying to use the space? Is this a Park and Rec sponsored program? What are the agreements about the hours of use? Is drinking allowed in the park? What about parking?
Competing Uses: Will the leash law be in effect and enforced on the disc golf course? It in not now enforced at Leddy Park or the beach, and I see this type of activity maybe adding to an already significant problem of unleashed dogs in the park.
Competing Uses: What is the current use of this area of the park?
Will the new use conflict with current use? How much space will the disc golf course cover?
Competing Uses: Leddy park disc golf will be a serious impact to current park users/adjoiners.
Competing Uses: I had the privilege of talking with
someone who plays this sport. We met at Leddy Park Sat AM. I got to throw one of these "Frisbees", and let me tell you I can see why this group wants to build a course, its FUN. There is a but however, as in Golf when you tee up, you use your biggest club and smack that ball as far as you can, same with disk golf. Your "driver" is kind of heavy and the edges are kind of sharp, you would not want catch it. So picture this, you stand at a tee and throw it as hard and far as you can... but your aim is off, and it goes off course right into the head off some one who was out walking the dog or... I have many more buts,
but will spare you! This is a mixed use park, I don't want to have to worry about this when I'm out walking.
Competing Uses: Howdy Neighbor, FORE! 18 holes of Leddy Park disc golf sounds like trouble and overkill to me. I am a disc golfer myself and would love to have a nearby course. What happened to the Intervale idea? But 18 holes in a multi-use park? One of those uses already being the quiet solitude trail walking/running in the urban forest itself? 18 holes of disc golf on flat wooded terrain (BORING terrain for disc golf to begin with) in multi-use Leddy Park will have a serious impact on adjoiners and current Park users. Most users like a course with more dramatic terrain and interesting holes. Say goodbye to walking in the woods unless you have a good orthodontist and eye goggles. Trust me. You don't want to be hit by one of these projectiles. This use should be seriously studied before it is permitted. Large lanes of forest will need to be cleared for the holes. Walkers will have to dodge the heavy disc projectiles fired off the tees. It will kill a walk in the undisturbed woods for people. If you're biking with any speed and get hit by one of these discs flying from the woods you will not forget it. The weighted disks are made to fly long distances often times a lot longer than the thrower intends. Whoops, is a favored disc golf expression. These are not lightweight Frisbees casually tossed. Usually, most holes require at least two strong throws to reach the
basket. And courses are in out of the way locations. Re. the google map: Neighborhood adjoiners may have players searching for their disks in their backyards let alone siding dents and broken windows. Plus, they change the environment considerably with lots of whoops, hollers,
and FORE!(S) going on by the players. Maybe they can pull off nine holes with minimum current park/use impact but I don't know. Also, usually some fair degree of partying is associated with this sport.
Given the obesity epidemic and the fact that there is a need, how about a much lower impact community built/private donor sponsored fitness trail instead, rather than a beer guzzling disc golf course on some of
Burlington's last urban forest? C'mon guys! In fact, I am here and now proposing a low impact fitness trail thru that property as a viable low impact alternative to this frisbee course and will be contacting city council, park and rec, et al. I think there is a need and that it is a much healthier low impact use for that land and the city should put it to a vote! Let me know if you want to help! Otherwise, get ready to
duck and cover.
Competing Uses: What is one person's nature preserve is another's disc golf course, homeless camp, moutain bike ride, etc. etc. And, its not that your post sounded political - its just that its almost a joke that we get upset about development or removal of trees / wetlands / etc.... yet we don't do anything about our current uses and abuses that cause daily damage to our lungs, lives, land, etc.
Game: How many people are actually going to play? What are the numbers of Burlington residents interested in playing? Personally, I do not see that many people interested in disc golf. Seems like a small number to me.
Game: Who determines who starts in when? Kind of like tee off time in golf.
Game: Will be similar to most golf courses.
Game: Have played in Michigan a few times and it is fun......sort of like a cross between croquet and golf. Perhaps if the Steering Committee would go out a play around members could get more a feel of what he game is all about?
Game: Waterbury has a course and covers 10 acres; How much space will this cover?
Game: What are the game rules? How many people play at a time? Where do we sign up?
General: Regarding the comment about peeing in the woods, I understand what you are saying, but aren't the homeless guys living in there now doing that same thing? I think that's one of the hidden upsides to this proposal. As a runner in this town you see more than a couple permanent tent sites in the woods just off the bike paths.
General: I grew up in Vermont playing sports, I still do outside rec. I truly do not know the answers to your question of are the brakes on permanently. Because there are still so many questions remaining I feel that anyone who can make a yea/nay, suspect. Someone brought up Starr Farm Road as a possible area. Any thoughts on that? One thing that I can't help but wonder, is if most people can throw a disk 200 plus yards, wouldn't you want a place where you could have a couple of nice long par 5 holes? Some water hazards? Dunno...
General: I learned of disc golf and the planned disc golf course at Leddy Park like many other folks, from the Front Porch Forum posting by Nancy Powers, after work was under way. I was concerned and read the brochure (which gives the impression that the whole park is being taken over), researched the sport online, took four walks on various trails through the park to seek out the course, attended the meeting last Wednesday, and chatted with club members beforehand to find out who they were. I encourage everyone to withhold judgment until all the facts are clear, and to please assume that everyone's opinions, pro and con, are presented with the best of intentions. The disc golf folks I met were a very responsible and "respectable" group. They weren't trying to sneak anything by the public, Parks & Rec wasn't trying to be secretive, and in fact the disc golf folks DID follow the process: they submitted a proposal, met with the P&R Commission and received approval. (And frankly, if we had a newspaper that actually assigned staff to cover city meetings, we would have known about this a long time ago.) Please, let's not make this an "us vs. them" or "not in my backyard" issue. The parks are for all of us, and all points of view deserve respect and consideration. That means finding out the facts and taking the time to LISTEN to those who have a different perspective. Alarmist views on either side of this issue -- and the hostile, "shout-'em-down statements made by several folks at that meeting, are a disservice to all of us.
General: Are development or use permits necessary? Do they have them? Have they looked at other locations? Why can't they use another park like Starr Farm and use portable holes and reserve it for specific times?
General: We in Burlington love our parks and our trees, but we have to acknowledge that thinning (if it indeed is thinning) is GOOD for a forest. At the same time, those whose properties abut the course and those who regularly walk the trails rightly have concerns that need to be addressed. Meanwhile, I am reminded of the fight that preceded our beautiful bike path, the Waterfront boathouse and related changes. These very positive developments never would have happened if people hadn't let go of their fears and been open to change.
General: Keep a natural area, natural.
General: I have mixed feelings regarding the project here - the course could help get more folks outside & using the park, which is always a good thing; however, there are very few undeveloped woods remaining in the NNE. And I'm definitely concerned that the park could be altered so drastically without getting
General: Thanks for sending along the links to the group's website & proposed course (it really does cover the entire park!).
General: Wow !! I took a look at the planned site. It covers almost all of the park. Check out the plan at http://www.btowndisc.com. Gone are the chances to have a quiet walk in the park. This course will cover all the area from the tennis courts and the road to the lake and all around the skating rink and up to the softball diamonds. I am wondering about the parking when the lots are full during Park and Rec Soccer season. I am also amazed that the city thought they could do this without talking to the residents. Who is going to maintain this? I thought we are having financial problems? Lots of questions and so far no answers
General: I am a resident of Lakewood Estates in Burlington and regularly walk in Leddy park. I am writing to express my grave concerns about the impending installation of an 18-hole Disc Golf course in the park. Over the past several weeks I have had numerous conversations and attended several meetings on this subject, including the September 3 informational meeting in Leddy Arena. Those meetings have served to intensify my opposition to this project. Most of the reasons for that opposition were raised at the meeting in Leddy Arena. I would like to reinforce a few of them and elaborate on one of them.
1. Environmental impact: The potential for soil erosion and both short- and long-term damage to wildlife, vegetation, the forest and seasonal wetlands appears to be great but has not yet been adequately assessed.
2. Beauty: I fear that, in addition to trampling vegetation, adding 18 baskets with bright yellow rims to the scenery in Leddy Park will diminish its contribution to Burlington's reputation as one of this country's most beautiful and livable cities.
3. Safety: It has not been made clear how 25 foot "buffers" will protect nearby residents and passersby from a hard disk, capable of traveling 500 feet - particularly when the disks are being hurled by the unsupervised novices who will undoubtedly be attracted to the sport.
4. Traffic: Estimates as to the number of people whom the sport will draw to Leddy Park have been as high as 1000 per week. The parking lot may be able to accommodate the cars, but can the park sustain that kind of use without long-term damage?
5. Planning: What is the long range strategy for Leddy Park? In the absence of a master plan, there is no agreed-upon yardstick against which to measure the appropriateness of a particular recreational proposal. We risk ending up with a park that includes a hodgepodge of ill-conceived and poorly-executed projects.
6. Process: My biggest objection is the process that was employed in making the decision to proceed with this project. It is inconceivable to me how the Commission could have given "conceptual approval" for such a drastic change to one of our parks without notifying and involving the public in advance. The sound of trees being cut was the first we heard about Disc Golf in Leddy Park. As one citizen in the September 3 meeting asked: "How can a private entity make its way into a public park without public input?" You may think me naive, but I believe that our city's parks belong to us, the taxpayers and users. As public servants, you are entrusted with the responsibility for acting on our behalf to manage and protect our parks. In the case of Disc Golf, the lack of public notification - let alone opportunity for public comment - feels to me like a betrayal of the trust we have placed in you.
What is needed now is what should have happened in the first place: an independent and objective assessment which includes a realistic estimate of the number of people that the golf course is likely to attract and its impacts on the environment in Leddy Park and on the safety of nearby residents and park users. I am requesting that the project be stopped indefinitely until such an assessment has been completed and the results have been made public. Then, based on the results of the assessment, a determination can be made as to whether installing a disc golf course in Leddy Park is in the best interests of the city and its citizens.
Other Initiatives: To endorse an NPA resolution, attend the meeting on Thursday September 18, 6:45 pm, Heineberg Club. To sign a petition, contact Ron McGarvey, RMCGAR864@aol.com or make a copy of the petition below:
PETITION
Environmental Assessment before Disc Golf at Leddy Park
We, the undersigned residents of Burlington, VT, are petitioning the Parks and Recreation Department and Commission to conduct an independent assessment of the issues below before proceeding with development of a disc golf course at Leddy Park. We feel that such an assessment should include:
1. The impacts of development in this urban forest on wildlife, vegetation and soil erosion.
2. Impact on the safety of current park users.
3. The impacts of significantly increased traffic due to this course, and
4. On-going maintenance costs to the City.
To ensure that Leddy Park continues to be a valuable recreation area for all Burlington residents, we also encourage the Parks and Recreation Department and Commission to develop, with citizen input and assistance, a Master Plan to guide the use, maintenance and future development of the Park.
PRINT Name SIGNATURE ADDRESS
Bring petition, with signatures, to the NPA meeting on Thursday, Sept. 18, 6:45 pm, Heineberg Center.
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This web site has photos of flowers in the park woodlands, and many pertinent documents. Excellent source of information. CLICK ON PHOTO!
By Rob Lowe, Woodlawn Rd, rob@817pine.com
Sat, 11 April 2009
Hey BTown Disc Golf Club,
I'm a New North Ender. I live on Woodlawn Road, which is about a five minute walk from the outskirts of Leddy Park. I'm fairly active. I play disc sports in the Burlington area.
I like to think of myself as open-minded. I haven't taken a side of the debate about whether a disc golf course should be built in Leddy Park in Burlington. Both sides of the debate have valid points.
Those who advocate for a disc golf course, including your organization, point out that there's a lot of under-utilized space in Leddy Park. They also correctly state that Burlington parks belong to all residents of Burlington, not just those of us who live in the New North End.
Those who do not support a disc golf course in Leddy Park voice concerns about the environmental impacts of course clearing, disc tossing, and refuse. They also raise issues that an eighteen-hole course will use most of the remaining woodlands inside the park.
Today, we received a flyer from Btown Disc Golf Club outlining your proposal for a disc golf course in Leddy Park. The flyer also contains a section titled "Who is the Opposition". Within that section, you mention "a disingenuous smear campaign filled with half-truths and red herrings" against your proposal. You mention that it "appears that opponents of disc golf have taken a page straight from George Bush and Karl Rove's playbook". You tie these quotes to "a small group of Leddy Park neighbors who feel this beautiful city park belongs solely to them".
Your flyer takes the tone of pitting the rest of Burlington against our neighborhoods in the New North End. Your use of Bush and Rove in your flyer smacks of political baiting in a city that does not need any more of a "five wards versus two" mentality. We're not all not-in-my-backyard obstructionists in the New North End. Some New North Enders don't support disc golf in Leddy Park, but there's not one of us who is fighting to keep the rest of Burlington out of Leddy Park.
While both sides of the debate have criticized the other side on its point of view, this is the first instance of a personal attack that I've seen by either side. I'm not impressed by it at all. Burlington residents aren't swayed to one side or another of any debate by name-calling. Give us all more credit than that.
I'm not saying that I'm against disc golf in Leddy Park. However, after the attack laid out in today's flyer, I definitely will not support any bid for disc golf put out by Btown Disc Golf, whether in Leddy Park or any other public land within the city of Burlington.
Sincerely,
Rob Lowe
Burlington
'Woodlands are unused spaces; there's plenty of room for a disc golf course,' says the B'Town Disc Golf Club.
Disc Golf, or walking trails? You be the judge.
The narrow lines on the aerial maps on are woodland walking paths, paths that residents currently use daily, 12 months of the year. The thick blue line is the paved road from Noprth Ave to the ice arena parking lot. The numbers 1-18 and thick white areas in the aerial photo on the right are fairways on the course, originally designed by B'Town Disc Golf Club. Trees have already been cut there!
The red dots on both maps represent a statistically probable impact area [purple] where the disc shaped projectiles fly during play. Any living thing in the red dot purple-shaded area is at risk -- including people, pets, wildlife and trees.
Many of the woodland paths, and the bikepath, pass through red-dot projectile impact areas.
To create a map of the area of the park affected by the proposed disc golf course, the Statistical Model of Boy Scout Disc Golf Skills by Steve West was applied to the course proposed by the BTown Disc Golf Club. This statistical model can be found in the Documents section of LeddyPark.org ....
Methodology First the disc throw patterns from the model were taken from the document and scaled so that they are accurately sized in relation to the original BTown map. The 150 foot mark on the map and in the document patterns was used as a reference for sizing. The patterns were colored red so that they would show up well on the map....
Are you in favor of building a disc golf course in Leddy Park?
Kurt Wright - NO
Andy Montroll - NO
Bob Kiss - NO (from btown dg website: At a later candidate forum, Bob Kiss appeared to change his stance on the proposed disc golf course in Leddy Park, saying he supports Disc Golf in Leddy Park on a trial basis.)
When the question was asked at the Seven Days Forum, it was phrased differently at first -- 18 hole disc golf course in NNE? This led Dan Smith to say YES, and Kurt Wright to answer UNCERTAIN. When "as proposed" and "Leddy Park" were added to the question, Andy Montroll and Bob Kiss said NO.
Now that more appropriate sites are known, and strong Ward 4 opposition is spreading to other wards in the city due to the objectionable process and forest protection issues, candidates are in general agreement that this is either a bad idea, bad process, or both.
Protect woodlands in Leddy Park.
This web site has photos of flowers in the park woodlands, and many pertinent documents. Excellent source of information. CLICK ON PHOTO!
OPEN LETTER TO BTOWN DISC GOLF CLUB
By Rob Lowe, Woodlawn Rd, rob@817pine.com
Sat, 11 April 2009
Hey BTown Disc Golf Club,
I'm a New North Ender. I live on Woodlawn Road, which is about a five minute walk from the outskirts of Leddy Park. I'm fairly active. I play disc sports in the Burlington area.
I like to think of myself as open-minded. I haven't taken a side of the debate about whether a disc golf course should be built in Leddy Park in Burlington. Both sides of the debate have valid points.
Those who advocate for a disc golf course, including your organization, point out that there's a lot of under-utilized space in Leddy Park. They also correctly state that Burlington parks belong to all residents of Burlington, not just those of us who live in the New North End.
Those who do not support a disc golf course in Leddy Park voice concerns about the environmental impacts of course clearing, disc tossing, and refuse. They also raise issues that an eighteen-hole course will use most of the remaining woodlands inside the park.
Today, we received a flyer from Btown Disc Golf Club outlining your proposal for a disc golf course in Leddy Park. The flyer also contains a section titled "Who is the Opposition". Within that section, you mention "a disingenuous smear campaign filled with half-truths and red herrings" against your proposal. You mention that it "appears that opponents of disc golf have taken a page straight from George Bush and Karl Rove's playbook". You tie these quotes to "a small group of Leddy Park neighbors who feel this beautiful city park belongs solely to them".
Your flyer takes the tone of pitting the rest of Burlington against our neighborhoods in the New North End. Your use of Bush and Rove in your flyer smacks of political baiting in a city that does not need any more of a "five wards versus two" mentality. We're not all not-in-my-backyard obstructionists in the New North End. Some New North Enders don't support disc golf in Leddy Park, but there's not one of us who is fighting to keep the rest of Burlington out of Leddy Park.
While both sides of the debate have criticized the other side on its point of view, this is the first instance of a personal attack that I've seen by either side. I'm not impressed by it at all. Burlington residents aren't swayed to one side or another of any debate by name-calling. Give us all more credit than that.
I'm not saying that I'm against disc golf in Leddy Park. However, after the attack laid out in today's flyer, I definitely will not support any bid for disc golf put out by Btown Disc Golf, whether in Leddy Park or any other public land within the city of Burlington.
Sincerely,
Rob Lowe
Burlington
Aerial Maps of WALKING TRAILS and Proposed Disc Golf course in Leddy Park
'Woodlands are unused spaces; there's plenty of room for a disc golf course,' says the B'Town Disc Golf Club.
Disc Golf, or walking trails? You be the judge.
The narrow lines on the aerial maps on are woodland walking paths, paths that residents currently use daily, 12 months of the year. The thick blue line is the paved road from Noprth Ave to the ice arena parking lot. The numbers 1-18 and thick white areas in the aerial photo on the right are fairways on the course, originally designed by B'Town Disc Golf Club. Trees have already been cut there!
The red dots on both maps represent a statistically probable impact area [purple] where the disc shaped projectiles fly during play. Any living thing in the red dot purple-shaded area is at risk -- including people, pets, wildlife and trees.
Many of the woodland paths, and the bikepath, pass through red-dot projectile impact areas.
Overlay Mapping of Disc Flight Trajectories
To create a map of the area of the park affected by the proposed disc golf course, the Statistical Model of Boy Scout Disc Golf Skills by Steve West was applied to the course proposed by the BTown Disc Golf Club. This statistical model can be found in the Documents section of LeddyPark.org ....
Methodology First the disc throw patterns from the model were taken from the document and scaled so that they are accurately sized in relation to the original BTown map. The 150 foot mark on the map and in the document patterns was used as a reference for sizing. The patterns were colored red so that they would show up well on the map....
May Karma Crap on Your Doorstep
DOG WASTE ISSUE?
By Brendan Bush, Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group - Ward 5, Catherine St, fpf@brendanbush.com
Mon, 01 June 2009
to the owner of the dog who left a giant steaming pile of mess in my newly planted front yard garden today: may karma crap on your doorstep.
to the respectful dog owners who, like me, bag the waste their dog creates: thank you for keeping our neighborhood (and our lake) clean. -Brendan
_________________________________
To Brendan [proponent of disc golf in Leddy Park]: crap in your garden IS Karma, your karma. Leddy Park is to many residents what your front yard garden is to you. Time will tell. If you have trees in your yard, or a path from across your yard where you walk from your house to a neighbor's home, a microburst could come out of nowhere, with no public notice, and cut down your trees, or a neighbor kid could break a window with a frisbee or hit you in the head as you are walking on your path.
Now, if the crap in the garden were a dream image, I'd say it represents the crap that Btown piled on the Parks Commission and the Parks Department, as well as on our neighborhoods.
By Brendan Bush, Leddy Park Disc Golf Working Group - Ward 5, Catherine St, fpf@brendanbush.com
Mon, 01 June 2009
to the owner of the dog who left a giant steaming pile of mess in my newly planted front yard garden today: may karma crap on your doorstep.
to the respectful dog owners who, like me, bag the waste their dog creates: thank you for keeping our neighborhood (and our lake) clean. -Brendan
_________________________________
To Brendan [proponent of disc golf in Leddy Park]: crap in your garden IS Karma, your karma. Leddy Park is to many residents what your front yard garden is to you. Time will tell. If you have trees in your yard, or a path from across your yard where you walk from your house to a neighbor's home, a microburst could come out of nowhere, with no public notice, and cut down your trees, or a neighbor kid could break a window with a frisbee or hit you in the head as you are walking on your path.
Now, if the crap in the garden were a dream image, I'd say it represents the crap that Btown piled on the Parks Commission and the Parks Department, as well as on our neighborhoods.
Recent Comments
Email comments from 2-17-09
I am appalled to learn of the favorable view of Burlington Parks and Recreation towardthe development of "disc golf" at Leddy Park!In a city whose natural footprint seems to be shrinking every day, Leddy Park is a jewel.The respite it provides people who walk along its wooded paths is priceless and the protection it provides as habitat to the birds and other animals that live there is absolutely necessary for their survival as well as a healthy ecosystem.
I am a New North End resident and am unequivocally opposed to "disc golf" at Leddy Park. It is not the appropriate setting for this type of recreational activity due its adverse impact on habitat and the peace and quiet of this beautiful forested park. I walk there frequently, as do many of my neighbors, and do not want to dodge flying discs! I will be attending meetings regarding this proposal and will be mobilizing my neighbors to
protest this absurd use of public park land. I appreciate that you all are willing to put in your time to try and resolve this issue. I am not sure that the Parks and Rec, director and/or commissioners are being honest with you. A very large group of people went to a meeting in Leddy Park and specifically requested that the course not be put in Leddy Park until much more study had been done. What does Parks and Rec do? Typical of their way of doing things they ignored what people
said and put together a group of people to figure out how to put the course in Leddy Park – that is not what all those people asked for that night. The Parks Dept. has done nothing except pit one group against the other. They put disc golf people on this panel after saying that no one with a specific interest in the outcome could be on the working group. There is deceit, disrespect for the community and a prevailing attitude that Parks and Rec will do what they want and they will prove they do not have to listen to the community. Where is the leadership of the city, where are the city counselors? Why is this group of city employees allowed to go ahead do as they please against the wishes of the community? Many of the disc golf players do live in Burlington, but there are many more that do not. At the last meeting one man said he loved disc golf, had never been in Leddy Park and didn't know anything about the environmental damage that may be caused. Then why was he there? Why not only listen to the Burlington tax paying community? I know they include disc golfers and that is fine, they have as much right as anybody to
express their opinion. People from outside of Burlington should not have their comments be part of the decision making process. I could probably bring in a couple of hundred people from out of Burlington to say they want to keep Leddy Park in its current sate. There was a man a few weeks ago that read all these statements from communities that love disc golf - yet I read dozens and dozens of comments from towns that are sorry they put disc golf in their local park. I am asking you to please request that Parks and Rec listen to the people that are requesting this course not be put in until more work is done to
find the appropriate place. Maybe that is within the city of Burlington and maybe it isn't. Please do not take away the small piece of wooded area in the city.
I live in ward 4 and support the idea of disc golf course at Leddy. My feeling is that 18 holes using the entire park, as I understand current proposal, is a bit too much but that scaling it back to either a smaller number of holes or a smaller portion of the park would have my full support. I do live relatively near to the park and use it frequently. I believe it would be a good addition.
I just read the attached FPF article requesting feedback on the Disc Golf Proposal for Leddy Park. I am Not in favor of the Disc Golf Proposal for Leddy Park. The forested portion of the
park is enjoyed by many residents as a preserve. There is currently a good balance between the forest, beach, rink, and athletic facilities, (fields and courts). The Disc Golf proposal would severely impact the enjoyment of the forest preserve and completely eliminate the current balance of park users. The 18 holes would be tightly packed into the forested area. The Disc Golf proposal would become the largest activity at Leddy Park as measured by land use, parking use, and foot traffic. The park will be over run by every Non Profit organization in the area holding fund raising tournaments, (Hockey, Soccer, Baseball, Football, Figure skating, church groups, booster clubs, etc, etc, etc); B-Town Disc Golf regional tournaments for fund raising, and local corporations holding Disc Golf Outings and Tournaments for their employees, (IBM, GE Health Care, Fletcher Allen, a multitude of private businesses, etc, etc, etc). There will be significant over use of the forested portion of the park. Who will schedule all this activity? Who will police this activity? Who will clean up? There is currently a good buffer between the community and the park. Park activities are predominantly located in the center of the park. The Disc Golf Proposal would expand park use to the park boundaries. Most courses are within 25 feet of the park boundary. At a minimum, the Disc golf should be scaled back to 9 holes that HUG the interior of the park, Not the perimeter. There are guidelines on the national Disc Golf website for land area required for 9 and 18 hole courses. Leddy's 75 acres is hardly enough for 9 holes and certainly Not 18 holes.
As a resident of Burlington's New North End for 37 of my 49 years, I am writing to you to voice my concern that Leddy Park may soon become a Disc Golf course. I grew up on Dale Road and enjoyed playing in the woods at Leddy for much of my childhood. After living in Downtown Burlington for awhile, I decided I wanted to return to an area that provided the many joys of preserved open spaces, the walking paths, access to the lake, and the wildlife that inhabits the woods. This was the main reason for my return to this area, and I have spent a great deal of my time over the past 16 years walking through the woods and along the lake. I find it difficult to comprehend that this area might disappear so that a golf course can be
built. Aren't there many other places in our surrounding area for this? Once this precious and beloved land is cleared for this purpose and trampled by hundreds or possibly even thousands of people, there is no turning back. Don't the people who have purchased homes and have raised their families in this neighborhood have a say in how we wish this surrounding land to remain? I believe that Section VII-11 of the Municipal Development Plan for the City of Burlington mandates the protection of urban forests and includes Leddy Park specifically in this context. In conclusion, I ask that the collective voice of the residents, who live around and enjoy the many features that Leddy Park has to offer, be heard. Thank you for your time.
So you are seeking input on the proposed disc golf park ? I have questions as to whether the city leaders really care about the overwhelming opposition to disc golf in Leddy expressed at the Feb. ward 4 & 7 NPA meeting... as a matter of fact , I'm surprised they are even bothering with the formality of seeking input! Open government, I suppose. I won't be surprised to hear of many more ideas in the near future to bring in the masses, in the interest of generating revenue for the city... you know, with the 60 or 70million dollar shortfall in the Burlington employees retirement fund we've inherited thanks to Clavelle... I'd almost bet this thing has already been decided. I do not support this joke of a proposal and yes I use this great little slice of heaven regularly when I walk with my family to the grocery store or the hardware store or video store or post office or creemee stand or dollar store or bank or ... maybe I'll just have to get in my truck in the future and drive over.
I am appalled to learn of the favorable view of Burlington Parks and Recreation towardthe development of "disc golf" at Leddy Park!In a city whose natural footprint seems to be shrinking every day, Leddy Park is a jewel.The respite it provides people who walk along its wooded paths is priceless and the protection it provides as habitat to the birds and other animals that live there is absolutely necessary for their survival as well as a healthy ecosystem.
I am a New North End resident and am unequivocally opposed to "disc golf" at Leddy Park. It is not the appropriate setting for this type of recreational activity due its adverse impact on habitat and the peace and quiet of this beautiful forested park. I walk there frequently, as do many of my neighbors, and do not want to dodge flying discs! I will be attending meetings regarding this proposal and will be mobilizing my neighbors to
protest this absurd use of public park land. I appreciate that you all are willing to put in your time to try and resolve this issue. I am not sure that the Parks and Rec, director and/or commissioners are being honest with you. A very large group of people went to a meeting in Leddy Park and specifically requested that the course not be put in Leddy Park until much more study had been done. What does Parks and Rec do? Typical of their way of doing things they ignored what people
said and put together a group of people to figure out how to put the course in Leddy Park – that is not what all those people asked for that night. The Parks Dept. has done nothing except pit one group against the other. They put disc golf people on this panel after saying that no one with a specific interest in the outcome could be on the working group. There is deceit, disrespect for the community and a prevailing attitude that Parks and Rec will do what they want and they will prove they do not have to listen to the community. Where is the leadership of the city, where are the city counselors? Why is this group of city employees allowed to go ahead do as they please against the wishes of the community? Many of the disc golf players do live in Burlington, but there are many more that do not. At the last meeting one man said he loved disc golf, had never been in Leddy Park and didn't know anything about the environmental damage that may be caused. Then why was he there? Why not only listen to the Burlington tax paying community? I know they include disc golfers and that is fine, they have as much right as anybody to
express their opinion. People from outside of Burlington should not have their comments be part of the decision making process. I could probably bring in a couple of hundred people from out of Burlington to say they want to keep Leddy Park in its current sate. There was a man a few weeks ago that read all these statements from communities that love disc golf - yet I read dozens and dozens of comments from towns that are sorry they put disc golf in their local park. I am asking you to please request that Parks and Rec listen to the people that are requesting this course not be put in until more work is done to
find the appropriate place. Maybe that is within the city of Burlington and maybe it isn't. Please do not take away the small piece of wooded area in the city.
I live in ward 4 and support the idea of disc golf course at Leddy. My feeling is that 18 holes using the entire park, as I understand current proposal, is a bit too much but that scaling it back to either a smaller number of holes or a smaller portion of the park would have my full support. I do live relatively near to the park and use it frequently. I believe it would be a good addition.
I just read the attached FPF article requesting feedback on the Disc Golf Proposal for Leddy Park. I am Not in favor of the Disc Golf Proposal for Leddy Park. The forested portion of the
park is enjoyed by many residents as a preserve. There is currently a good balance between the forest, beach, rink, and athletic facilities, (fields and courts). The Disc Golf proposal would severely impact the enjoyment of the forest preserve and completely eliminate the current balance of park users. The 18 holes would be tightly packed into the forested area. The Disc Golf proposal would become the largest activity at Leddy Park as measured by land use, parking use, and foot traffic. The park will be over run by every Non Profit organization in the area holding fund raising tournaments, (Hockey, Soccer, Baseball, Football, Figure skating, church groups, booster clubs, etc, etc, etc); B-Town Disc Golf regional tournaments for fund raising, and local corporations holding Disc Golf Outings and Tournaments for their employees, (IBM, GE Health Care, Fletcher Allen, a multitude of private businesses, etc, etc, etc). There will be significant over use of the forested portion of the park. Who will schedule all this activity? Who will police this activity? Who will clean up? There is currently a good buffer between the community and the park. Park activities are predominantly located in the center of the park. The Disc Golf Proposal would expand park use to the park boundaries. Most courses are within 25 feet of the park boundary. At a minimum, the Disc golf should be scaled back to 9 holes that HUG the interior of the park, Not the perimeter. There are guidelines on the national Disc Golf website for land area required for 9 and 18 hole courses. Leddy's 75 acres is hardly enough for 9 holes and certainly Not 18 holes.
As a resident of Burlington's New North End for 37 of my 49 years, I am writing to you to voice my concern that Leddy Park may soon become a Disc Golf course. I grew up on Dale Road and enjoyed playing in the woods at Leddy for much of my childhood. After living in Downtown Burlington for awhile, I decided I wanted to return to an area that provided the many joys of preserved open spaces, the walking paths, access to the lake, and the wildlife that inhabits the woods. This was the main reason for my return to this area, and I have spent a great deal of my time over the past 16 years walking through the woods and along the lake. I find it difficult to comprehend that this area might disappear so that a golf course can be
built. Aren't there many other places in our surrounding area for this? Once this precious and beloved land is cleared for this purpose and trampled by hundreds or possibly even thousands of people, there is no turning back. Don't the people who have purchased homes and have raised their families in this neighborhood have a say in how we wish this surrounding land to remain? I believe that Section VII-11 of the Municipal Development Plan for the City of Burlington mandates the protection of urban forests and includes Leddy Park specifically in this context. In conclusion, I ask that the collective voice of the residents, who live around and enjoy the many features that Leddy Park has to offer, be heard. Thank you for your time.
So you are seeking input on the proposed disc golf park ? I have questions as to whether the city leaders really care about the overwhelming opposition to disc golf in Leddy expressed at the Feb. ward 4 & 7 NPA meeting... as a matter of fact , I'm surprised they are even bothering with the formality of seeking input! Open government, I suppose. I won't be surprised to hear of many more ideas in the near future to bring in the masses, in the interest of generating revenue for the city... you know, with the 60 or 70million dollar shortfall in the Burlington employees retirement fund we've inherited thanks to Clavelle... I'd almost bet this thing has already been decided. I do not support this joke of a proposal and yes I use this great little slice of heaven regularly when I walk with my family to the grocery store or the hardware store or video store or post office or creemee stand or dollar store or bank or ... maybe I'll just have to get in my truck in the future and drive over.
Three Mayoral Candidates Say No Disc Golf Course in Leddy Park
Are you in favor of building a disc golf course in Leddy Park?
Kurt Wright - NO
Andy Montroll - NO
Bob Kiss - NO (from btown dg website: At a later candidate forum, Bob Kiss appeared to change his stance on the proposed disc golf course in Leddy Park, saying he supports Disc Golf in Leddy Park on a trial basis.)
When the question was asked at the Seven Days Forum, it was phrased differently at first -- 18 hole disc golf course in NNE? This led Dan Smith to say YES, and Kurt Wright to answer UNCERTAIN. When "as proposed" and "Leddy Park" were added to the question, Andy Montroll and Bob Kiss said NO.
Now that more appropriate sites are known, and strong Ward 4 opposition is spreading to other wards in the city due to the objectionable process and forest protection issues, candidates are in general agreement that this is either a bad idea, bad process, or both.
UPDATES
Controversy Swirls Over Disc Golf -- Can we trust the process?
LEDDY PARK USE: SEPT. 18, 22, 23
If you object to the process by which the Parks & Recreation Commission made a decision to start construction of a disc golf course in Leddy Park, come to the Ward 4 and Ward 7 Neighborhood Planning Assembly meeting on Sept. 18 (Heineberg Center, sign-in at 6:45 pm). Open Government is on the agenda, and Nancy Powers has secured time for residents to address the process by which the city made the disc golf course decision.
"The Open Government Committee Report" is also on the agenda of the City Council meeting on Sept 22 (7 pm, Contois Auditorium). That's a good time to talk directly with the Council about your concerns about disc golf in Leddy Park, both the process and the decision. The City Council has oversight of the Parks & Rec. Commission.
"The Open Government Committee Report" is also on the agenda of the City Council meeting on Sept 22 (7 pm, Contois Auditorium). That's a good time to talk directly with the Council about your concerns about disc golf in Leddy Park, both the process and the decision. The City Council has oversight of the Parks & Rec. Commission.
QUESTIONS and COMMENTS
1. Does anyone know how many acres of public trust urban forest have been committed for this one activity? I believe this is more than a baseball and football field combined. The 18 hole Waterbury course which I have played numerous times seems to me about 10 acres or so. It is made interesting to play by the hazards it contains: rock outcroppings, varying elevations, water hazards, meadow, bog. As I see it the only hazard in Leddy Park are the trees. According to btown's course design it looks like the course takes up all the urban forest in the park.
2. Does anyone know the long term effect/impact the weighted discs will have on the trees per hole? The same trees will constantly be hit/nicked by the hard disc edges over and over again often in the same places, much like a fiberglass hatchett. An urban disc course will attract a large amount of traffic. The only hazard to play around or thru are the trees.
3. A fitness trail with workout stations along it would not have anywhere near this impact and is available for all people to use including people with disabilities. For example, the pull up/chin up station has three different bars set at different levels--low, medium, high. The disc golf course is a major usurping of the last piece of level urban forest park public trust land for a single activity and would make such a fitness trail more difficult to create because of all the flying discs. Also the other funny thing about this is: we're talking about disc golf...why do you need 18 holes? This is an activity not a sport. This is not real golf where I'm sure there is some arcane reason. Why do they need 18 holes for disc golf? What is that about?
toilets, alcohol, butts
MORE DISC GOLF CONCERNS
By Bob Hill, Oakcrest Dr, skihill@gmail.com
Tue, 16 September 2008
1. Toilets: Even if the toilets at Leddy are left open, will people walk the distance while in the middle of their round to access them? There playing partners will wait? Doubt it.
2. Will alcohol and other substances be used during play? yes.
Leddy has not been supervised all summer. Free parking and no supervision has led to increased litter etc. on the beach. The beach has been gross all summer for lack of a better term. I would not bring my kids there. Disc golf will increase usage greatly. There will be more litter, more dog droppings left, public urination, substance use, cigarette butts, etc. This is a bad idea that has not been thought through.
By Bob Hill, Oakcrest Dr, skihill@gmail.com
Tue, 16 September 2008
1. Toilets: Even if the toilets at Leddy are left open, will people walk the distance while in the middle of their round to access them? There playing partners will wait? Doubt it.
2. Will alcohol and other substances be used during play? yes.
Leddy has not been supervised all summer. Free parking and no supervision has led to increased litter etc. on the beach. The beach has been gross all summer for lack of a better term. I would not bring my kids there. Disc golf will increase usage greatly. There will be more litter, more dog droppings left, public urination, substance use, cigarette butts, etc. This is a bad idea that has not been thought through.
Competing Uses
I used the link to the Btown Disc Golf Club site. A friend sent me an aerial photo with the 18 holes superimposed on nearly every corner of the wooded areas of Leddy Park. I generally am more pro-development than most Vermonters. However here we are talking about dedicated parkland and wooded areas that serve to provide an escape from our urban life as well as refreshing breezes and the cooling canopy that wooded areas provide in the summer season. I will admit I use the wooded areas nearer my home more but if I were to live close to Leddy Park and enjoy walks in the woods there, I would be strongly opposed to this development. I do bicycle through the wooded areas at Leddy Park on my way to the shopping center, weather permitting. Chuck Niles' photos of wooded areas in Leddy Park on the Btown Disc Golf web site convince me that this forested acreage should be preserved for more passive activities - hiking, dog walking, even running - which do not require tree clearance.
Thus, I would like to register my opposition to this project, in support of the neighbors close by who use it regularly, and of the future senior citizens housing, as I would want their support if the wooded areas near to my home at Northshore were treatened with partial tree clearing. I believe that disc golf will be a trend for a while and then fade out of popularity. To accommodate it by clearing golf links lanes will forever change the character of Leddy Park.
Ecological, Natural community Perspective
I am in total agreement with the posting by Sue Brooks
to FPF on Sept 12 against the proposed 18-hole disc golf course at Leddy Park. On Sept 4th, Angele Court (Lakewood Estates) wrote a letter in opposition to the disc golf course as well. A neighbor of mine has recommended that they completely move holes (#13-15) running east-west in the woods abutting both Lakewood Estates and Leonard Street neighborhoods. I personally think they should move holes
(#11-15) out of that forested-area.
I am total opposition to this 18-hole disc course, and will do what I can to stop further development of this course in the woods of Leddy Park. I would like to see them move out of Leddy Park completely and go to some more open agricultural area in the city of Burlington where they wont have so much
detrimental impact upon the forested natural community of the park.
I am a natural historian and ecologist by profession and have a great knowledge base in regards to birds, herbaceous plants, understory trees, forested communities, wildlife habitat and so forth. I will be doing my part from an ecological, natural community perspective to halt further cutting of holes in the woods of Leddy Park.
to FPF on Sept 12 against the proposed 18-hole disc golf course at Leddy Park. On Sept 4th, Angele Court (Lakewood Estates) wrote a letter in opposition to the disc golf course as well. A neighbor of mine has recommended that they completely move holes (#13-15) running east-west in the woods abutting both Lakewood Estates and Leonard Street neighborhoods. I personally think they should move holes
(#11-15) out of that forested-area.
I am total opposition to this 18-hole disc course, and will do what I can to stop further development of this course in the woods of Leddy Park. I would like to see them move out of Leddy Park completely and go to some more open agricultural area in the city of Burlington where they wont have so much
detrimental impact upon the forested natural community of the park.
I am a natural historian and ecologist by profession and have a great knowledge base in regards to birds, herbaceous plants, understory trees, forested communities, wildlife habitat and so forth. I will be doing my part from an ecological, natural community perspective to halt further cutting of holes in the woods of Leddy Park.
SERIOUS DESIGN CONCERNS
I have played disc golf for over ten years on Vermont courses in Waterbury, Cabot, Bolton, and Sugarbush, as well as in Houston, TX. and Atlanta, GA. I have walked the planned course at Leddy Park and think it will be a beautiful course to play on and become quite popular.
However, I have several serious concerns about the design of this course because it does not take into account pedestrian safety.
My strongest concern is at hole #18 next to the lakeshore. (See map at:
http://www.btowndisc.com/i/newmap.jpg) That area is a beautiful overlook of
the lake. It also has a popular beach below it. If an errant throw sends a very hard plastic golf disc over the edge it suddenly gains 25 feet of altitude. This means it will fly farther and drop faster. The disc could seriously injure a sunbather on the beach below. I find this unacceptable and believe the #18 area is best left as it is for everyone to enjoy.
My second concern is the Trail through the woods on the south side of the park. Holes #11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 run up and down both sides of the Trail, so essentially the Trail will become part of the disc golf course. Just looking at the Trail tells you it has a large history of use. It is the safest alternative to walking on the road, and offers a sense of solitude (now partially destroyed from cutting). The trail will become very unsafe for an unwary pedestrian. I personally use it four times a week to run, bike, ski, and walk with my family. But I would never take my two-year-old boy through the middle of a disc golf course! Loosing the use of this Trail is too large a sacrifice for my family. And I am surprised the Parks department finds it OK to loose this important pedestrian corridor.
I propose the course be redesigned and move holes #13, 14, 15, and 18 to different locations. There is room in the woods north of the softball fields. There are no major pedestrian paths in there. A lot of the dead wood on the ground could be removed, which has been building to a fire hazard. And this is also the area where I see homeless encampments in the fall. I
believe this would preserve the Trail through the south woods so that everyone can continue using and enjoying it.
When I first heard about the golf course I was very excited. I can walk to it from my house and enjoy even more of Leddy Park. I have signed up with other volunteers to help build it, and can't wait to play with friends, family, and neighbors.
But for me the sacrifice of loosing the south side Trail is to high. So I encourage my neighbors and other park users to take an hour of your time and attend the meeting Wednesday night at 7PM in the Leddy Park Arena. I look forward to hearing what the B-Town Disc Golf Club and the Parks Department have to say about this wonderful recreational opportunity.
Please voice your support for a Disc Golf Course that is safe and preserves the use of an important Trail through Leddy Park.
However, I have several serious concerns about the design of this course because it does not take into account pedestrian safety.
My strongest concern is at hole #18 next to the lakeshore. (See map at:
http://www.btowndisc.com/i/newmap.jpg) That area is a beautiful overlook of
the lake. It also has a popular beach below it. If an errant throw sends a very hard plastic golf disc over the edge it suddenly gains 25 feet of altitude. This means it will fly farther and drop faster. The disc could seriously injure a sunbather on the beach below. I find this unacceptable and believe the #18 area is best left as it is for everyone to enjoy.
My second concern is the Trail through the woods on the south side of the park. Holes #11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 run up and down both sides of the Trail, so essentially the Trail will become part of the disc golf course. Just looking at the Trail tells you it has a large history of use. It is the safest alternative to walking on the road, and offers a sense of solitude (now partially destroyed from cutting). The trail will become very unsafe for an unwary pedestrian. I personally use it four times a week to run, bike, ski, and walk with my family. But I would never take my two-year-old boy through the middle of a disc golf course! Loosing the use of this Trail is too large a sacrifice for my family. And I am surprised the Parks department finds it OK to loose this important pedestrian corridor.
I propose the course be redesigned and move holes #13, 14, 15, and 18 to different locations. There is room in the woods north of the softball fields. There are no major pedestrian paths in there. A lot of the dead wood on the ground could be removed, which has been building to a fire hazard. And this is also the area where I see homeless encampments in the fall. I
believe this would preserve the Trail through the south woods so that everyone can continue using and enjoying it.
When I first heard about the golf course I was very excited. I can walk to it from my house and enjoy even more of Leddy Park. I have signed up with other volunteers to help build it, and can't wait to play with friends, family, and neighbors.
But for me the sacrifice of loosing the south side Trail is to high. So I encourage my neighbors and other park users to take an hour of your time and attend the meeting Wednesday night at 7PM in the Leddy Park Arena. I look forward to hearing what the B-Town Disc Golf Club and the Parks Department have to say about this wonderful recreational opportunity.
Please voice your support for a Disc Golf Course that is safe and preserves the use of an important Trail through Leddy Park.
Go see for Yourself
Hi folks, this is my response to the FPF from Parks & Rec, I grew up on a dairy farm, I'm not a trained Arborist, but I sure know the difference between brush, sapling, and a tree! In a direct respond to Melissa Young from Parks and Rec. I have several examples of what our city Arborist Warren Spinner thinks is underbrush. I have the pictures, and have some cuttings left behind, this is not minimal impact(and this is just hole number one). They have cut a 30 foot wide path through one of the few remaining parts of our city that is wooded. I will gladly share my pictures, and the cuttings are at the foot of my driveway. I would encourage people to go look for themselves. If you go to to Leddy Park Arena and take a short walk to the NW part of woods, the destruction is there to see.
Greg Jenkins
Greg Jenkins
How does this fit in with the big picture?
I just walked the whole park to see the clearing that is been done. It is interesting. My perspective will be different then some. I know a lot about clearing woods to make healthy trees. I have worked with the county foresters in Addison County on my personal land. Some/most of the disc holes still have a full canopy. I definitely think giving the disc golf members a chance to present is a good thing. The process and the master plan for the park is what I am concerned about. How does this fit in with the big picture?
Not a Good Idea
This is not a minimal impact sport, go to Waterbury and take a look at the shape of that park, it is tired, it is worn. The Leddy Park course runs up and down the park, and is only 40' ft wide, true; but how do you control a disk, you can't make it stay in the lane. It will go where is it mis-thrown. I have thrown these disks, they are not Frisbees that you play catch with, they will do some serious damage when they strike
something, like a person! Finally, I don't wish to get bogged down in the details of what is classified as a sapling, but I have parts of trees that were cut down, and they are more than 3" in diameter. Please do some basic research, don't just listen to the officials that are in charge, I'm no reporter, but I talked, and met with an avid disk golf player so that I could try to understand if this is something that would be good for this mixed use park; I have concluded that it is not a
great idea to have an 18 hole course. Greg Jenkins
something, like a person! Finally, I don't wish to get bogged down in the details of what is classified as a sapling, but I have parts of trees that were cut down, and they are more than 3" in diameter. Please do some basic research, don't just listen to the officials that are in charge, I'm no reporter, but I talked, and met with an avid disk golf player so that I could try to understand if this is something that would be good for this mixed use park; I have concluded that it is not a
great idea to have an 18 hole course. Greg Jenkins
Neither For Nor Against
I just want to be clear that I'm neither for or against the development of this use in the park. I feel that if processes are in place for neighborhood input and they weren't followed (permitting, NPA approvals, etc. etc.) then the project should pause and gather the appropriate responses / documents / etc.
If there aren't clear procedures for developing or re-purposing city owned land that falls under the jurisdiction of Parks and Rec - then I feel that for the benefits of the disc club and Parks and Rec that this should move forward through the proper channels.
If the NPA feels that there should be a better method for this - then I think the NPA, Parks and Rec, and the city should investigate a way to make this process more transparent - for the next development that should occur.
The softballers and other sports @ Leddy have opportunities - I believe that the disc golfers should have a chance as well. We're not threatening to pull out the backstops and bases and plant more trees... it seems if folks want to take a stand on our 'wild areas' we should be looking at the big picture. And from what I know, disc golf is fairly low impact, doesn't require extensive maintanance, and is a quiet activity enjoyed by small groups.
If there aren't clear procedures for developing or re-purposing city owned land that falls under the jurisdiction of Parks and Rec - then I feel that for the benefits of the disc club and Parks and Rec that this should move forward through the proper channels.
If the NPA feels that there should be a better method for this - then I think the NPA, Parks and Rec, and the city should investigate a way to make this process more transparent - for the next development that should occur.
The softballers and other sports @ Leddy have opportunities - I believe that the disc golfers should have a chance as well. We're not threatening to pull out the backstops and bases and plant more trees... it seems if folks want to take a stand on our 'wild areas' we should be looking at the big picture. And from what I know, disc golf is fairly low impact, doesn't require extensive maintanance, and is a quiet activity enjoyed by small groups.
OTHER INITIATIVES
To sign a petition, -- There is a copy at the end of the Comments and Questions List on this webpage. Or contact contact Ron McGarvey, RMCGAR864@aol.com .
To endorse the Neighborhood Planning Assembly resolution, attend the NPA meeting on Thursday, September 18, 6:45 pm, at the Heineberg Club. The subject of this meeting is Open Government. Agenda.
To express your ideas and opinions, go to Front Porch Forum .
The issues will be discussed at City Council meeting on Sept. 22, 7pm, Contois Auditorium, City Hall; and at the Parks Commission Meeting on Sept. 23. 5 pm. Location? Call City Clerk's Office -- 865-7000.
To endorse the Neighborhood Planning Assembly resolution, attend the NPA meeting on Thursday, September 18, 6:45 pm, at the Heineberg Club. The subject of this meeting is Open Government. Agenda.
To express your ideas and opinions, go to Front Porch Forum .
The issues will be discussed at City Council meeting on Sept. 22, 7pm, Contois Auditorium, City Hall; and at the Parks Commission Meeting on Sept. 23. 5 pm. Location? Call City Clerk's Office -- 865-7000.